Originally Posted by alfaromeo

I do know that the Airtran pilots came to the merger with weak merger protection language that was negotiated by the NPA. Carl or RCD73 will chime in that ALPA negotiated a deal AFTER the merger announcement, but you and I both know that whatever language the NPA negotiated, the Airtran pilots were stuck with it. Sometimes independence has its costs.

I know that the language in our scope clause would never allow it. I know there must be some threat, otherwise the Airtran leadership would reject this POS on sight. I am pretty sure that an arbitrator would never make a list this heinous. I am pretty sure that SWAPA and SWA management believe that an arbitrator would never make a list this heinous and thus are resorting to extortion to get their way.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

The short answer is I don't know. As I have said many times before, pretending you know as much as a good lawyer is a ticket to make serious mistakes.

I do know that the Airtran pilots came to the merger with weak merger protection language that was negotiated by the NPA. Carl or RCD73 will chime in that ALPA negotiated a deal AFTER the merger announcement, but you and I both know that whatever language the NPA negotiated, the Airtran pilots were stuck with it. Sometimes independence has its costs.

I know that the language in our scope clause would never allow it. I know there must be some threat, otherwise the Airtran leadership would reject this POS on sight. I am pretty sure that an arbitrator would never make a list this heinous. I am pretty sure that SWAPA and SWA management believe that an arbitrator would never make a list this heinous and thus are resorting to extortion to get their way.

I know that I have lost respect for SWA management and SWAPA. This is extortion and they are just one legbreaker away from becoming just like the mob.

Originally Posted by cloudsurf

I am between 10 and 15 % overall seniority - currently at AirTran - CA 737. I have been a captain for many years at AirTran. I lost approx. 30 % in seniority when placed on the combined list. I am being placed with SWA F/O's with DOH's approx. 2-3 years after my DOH. I did have total control of my quality of life. Any days I wanted to work, any cities, times, vacation, ... I was on track to make approx. 200 thousand in salary this year. In addition, the company writes a seperate check every month equal to 10.5 % of my monthly gross and it is sent to my 401 K. Also, we just started a 1 % company match to our personal 401k contributions.
Now I have 3 choices. 717 CA . 717 F/O. SWA 737 F/O. If I bid back to the 717 it is risky. SWA has stated they do not want the airplane. No one trust SWAPA or SWA right now because of what has happened thus far. They have told us they have no intention of following any of the agreements that were signed or verbally agreed to by all the parties. I don’t want to be on the plane and they fire us and get rid of the airplane. If I choose to stay on the 737 then I must bid to be a F/O. They will not let anyone come over as a Captain- period. I will have to start commuting to one of their bases. I will be given a chance to upgrade in 2015 if there are vacancies. This will place me as a very junior CA. All quality of life is now gone. Oh, and I take about a 20 DOLLAR PER HOUR PAY CUT. For some reason, everyone seems to think that SWA F/O's make more per hour than an AirTan Captain. In about 17 – 19 years I will be back to what I am currently on the AirTran Seniority list. Only 1 -3 years left at that point.
From the SWAPA bullet points:
For SW Pilots a certainty of “no harm” integrated seniority, An improvement of relative seniority, Increase in overall career earnings, significant and assured upgrade opportunities on the AirTran 737’s and maybe the 717’s.
SWAPA and SWA are pointing out to us AirTran pilots we gain the following: 1. A place on the Southwest Master Seniority list. 2. A clear and certain path to integrated operations (We already had signed documents and verbal agreements – how do we trust this again). 3. Our medical and dental will now be a little cheaper per month. 4. We get to participate in the profit sharing and they match 9.3 percent of our contribution. ( I was getting 10.5 of monthly gross without me contributing before and 1 % of matched contributions). 5. Coverage of the Southwest Pilot fatigue policy. 6. Significant career earnings after 2015, ( SWAPA says CA’s make around 240,000 per year). I was already making pretty close to that.
What do I think? I think one minute we were profitable, hiring and getting new aircraft deliveries. I had a great life. Southwest shows up giving us parties and talking about their culture. They send us literature on life as a Southwest pilot to our homes. They really want to focus on the money. They tell us how they don’t want a US AIR problem. They want to come to an agreement with us on how to integrate the seniority list. The use Delta and Northwest as a positive example. Mediation and Arbitration people are chosen along with dates. We show up and are hammered with threats of unemployment if we do not accept their offer.

Originally Posted by RCD73

Yes, I will chime in. In fact, so will ALPA. I asked the ALPA EVP this exact question; The latest scope and merger language negotiated by ALPA is in play here. Contained in the CBA negotiated by ALPA. That fact has been confirmed by ALPA, SWA and SWAPA.

It's appalling, but not surprising that you are;

1. So poorly informed, if you are indeed an ALPA Rep, and

2. Attempting to turn this into a DPA vs DALPA discussion.

I'll be happy to put you in contact with an ALPA EVP to correct you. I hope for the sake of DALPA that you are not in fact a Rep.

PM me and I'll put you in touch with somebody who actually understands what's going on. This isn't a case of interpretation. It's a case of 'AlfaRomeo' disagreeing with a fact that has been already established by the four parties involved.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

And just to verify, at any point SWA can say "that's it, you're all fired" and close up shop and bring in their employees to replace the fired FL employees?

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Okay, is that language that you attribute to ALPA better or worse than the NPA language? What are the differences?

Why are you asking questions regarding the differences between the two contracts ? You've already stated incorrectly that the NPA language was in effect. The ALPA contract is in effect.

I know you are a devout ALPA hater, but please you just make yourself look stupid when you make these arguments.

Interesting. Alcohol ?

Whatever shortfalls there were in your merger protections, they were there because the NPA failed to have proper language in place WHEN THE MERGER AGREEMENT WAS MADE. Period. There is no one that is even remotely knowledgeable about these transactions would say any differently.

Now I'm beginning to think somebody has your login.

So don't hold your breath waiting for my PM. I already know the answer, the NPA left their pilots vulnerable and there was nothing ALPA could do to fix that once the merger agreement was in place.

Ask your EVP those questions and then get back to me. Or, you can post the merger, successorship and fragmentation language from both contracts and I will make the analysis for you.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

The short answer is I don't know. As I have said many times before, pretending you know as much as a good lawyer is a ticket to make serious mistakes.

I do know that the Airtran pilots came to the merger with weak merger protection language that was negotiated by the NPA. Carl or RCD73 will chime in that ALPA negotiated a deal AFTER the merger announcement, but you and I both know that whatever language the NPA negotiated, the Airtran pilots were stuck with it. Sometimes independence has its costs.

I know that the language in our scope clause would never allow it. I know there must be some threat, otherwise the Airtran leadership would reject this POS on sight. I am pretty sure that an arbitrator would never make a list this heinous. I am pretty sure that SWAPA and SWA management believe that an arbitrator would never make a list this heinous and thus are resorting to extortion to get their way.

I know that I have lost respect for SWA management and SWAPA. This is extortion and they are just one legbreaker away from becoming just like the mob.

Originally Posted by Clear Right

The real debate IMO centers around federal law (Bond-Mac) and collective bargaining (union) power. Recent arbitrator rulings (AmWest/USAir), and (Frontier/RAH), as well as the recent TWA award have shown that RELATIVE RATIO is the new standard of law in merger and acquisitions. However, Bond-Mac does stipulate that collective bargaining policy, like ALPA merger policy will be taken into effect.

The problem is arbitration is resulting in the new RELATIVE RATIO legal standard, but many of the unions don't like that standard, like USAPA. SWA management is very, very aware that an arbitrated list will most likely result in a relative ratio, which of course will result in a SWAPA / ALPA pilot group clash resulting in a long drawn out battle.

Unions are effectively loosing power, because arbitration will result in a "fair standard" that in this case SWAPA won't like. ALPA is going to lose FL pilot due anyway, so they just want to protect ALPA and union power. Arbitration in a way will hurt them as well. Just my opinion.