SWA to open ATL Base - Page 6 - Airline Pilot Central Forums

#51

WHACKMASTER , 01-02-2013 01:07 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Seat 1Engine

Already worked with many FAT pilots. None of them are like you. Thank God.

Yup, some are taking it better while some are taking it worse. Keep in mind that they're not just going to offload on you openly. Just go back to sticking your head in the sand to make yourself feel okay with what you and your management conspired to do to my pilot group, because as others have pointed out on this thread, none of you are going to own up to it.

#52

V169 , 01-02-2013 01:13 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Wiggy - before you take another hit from WM's grand seniority theft conspiracy bong please consider that at the time of the SLI vote Gary Kelly was still maintaining that the 717 was a "good airplane" so almost 2 out of every 3 Captain seats at Air Tran were protected by the agreement. Backing up even futher, if the Air Tran MEC put SL-9 out for a vote (which protected EVERY Air Tran Captain seat) GK would have had a terrible dilemma on his hands had the vote passed at AT but failed at SWA. How could he then take anything away from the side that voted YES to appease the side that voted NO? It's not about getting what you "deserve" - it's about getting what you are smart enough to negotiate.

My sympathies in this matter are with the former AT pilots who came over to SWA before this whole mess started. They went through the stress of the interview process (some even bought a type rating) and cashed in all their chips to wind up junior to their former co-workers who they left behind at AT.

#53

Rolf , 01-02-2013 02:01 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:
Regarding your first paragraph, I trace the reasoning behind that back to SWAPA's insistence on a staple right from the get-go. We know how your union works, bro. Let's not bullschit here. Any Frontier pilots want to chip in on this?

Pay and seniority for guys on the street? 8 hours to come to an agreement? SWAPA offered a staple. Personally, I think GK wanted to look at F9's books

As insistent as SWAPA was on getting a landslide deal for you guys, G.K. knew that if he didn't appease 5,900 SWAPA pilots there'd be a VERY large bunch of unhappy employees who control a major part of an airline's operation. Ever hear of the saying, "You gotta keep the pilots happy"?

While I'll give you that our union (Merger Committee and MEC Chairman in particular) could have handled things MUCH better, let's not sugar coat the reason why ol' G.K. stepped into our SLI negotiations and not others. He was dead set on going to bat for you guys so he didn't have almost 6,000 pi**ed off pilots flying his airplanes around. You know, the CULTure!

Our respective unions used what they thought were the best strategy. Maybe SWAPA and ALPA should have been working as one to keep things progressing and yield a better outcome for both groups. This, of course, would have required ALPA to actually be there and SWAPA to show a little softness. Agree mostly with the reason GK stepped in. I think more importantly, he didn't want the pilots to bog down his merger. I will give your union an F and my guys a D+

Well, he did a good job but now I hope he's ready for the repercussions of pi**ing off the smaller pilot group.

As for 1/1/2015.........I don't think we'd "hate being at SWA" if this whole thing went down fairly. Quite the contrary, I think we HAD a pilot group that would have fit in quite well with yours and your company. It really could have been good, but not so much anymore.

Ah yes, January 1st, 2015. The day that some of our senior Cptns. who can actually hold SWA Cptn. over there after the massive loss of seniority, get to reupgrade for a while to come after that date, all the while pi**ing your F/Os off. That and hearing that your F/Os are upset because some of the more senior AT pilots are coming to their bases and bumping their bidding power down (wouldn't have happened if they wouldn't have lost their seat), is all music to our ears. It's the least we can do for you guys being that we were treated so damned well. You're welcome

The data still shows that your career qol and earnings will be significantly better. My heartburn with this agreement is mostly with implementation and the short term unfairness, but voting no on the hope of maybe getting that fixed was too risky imo.

#54

WHACKMASTER , 01-02-2013 02:17 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by V169

You're talking about the same SL-9 (AIP 1) that proposed relative seniority losses of up to 33%? That one?

Yeah, that's "fair & equitable". We would have passed that. I can't imagine why so many of us were so vocal in demanding that our union shove it back w/o even putting it out for a vote

#55

V169 , 01-02-2013 02:43 PM

Gets Weekends Off

It all came down to a tug of war between seats and seniority. Your side swang for the fence and lost both in the process. If it's such an open and shut case then man up, hire a lawyer, and before you know it you'll be sitting in the left seat of a SWA jet with full retro pay in your bank account--there's talk that some of you have pursued that path. I must caution you that a gang of Morris guys tried that 19 years ago and after spending $30,000 in out of pocket legal fees they wound up stapled in the same place on the seniority list.

#56

blakman7 , 01-02-2013 07:06 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggy

I am in sympathy with the AirTran pilots. Though I wouldn't have expected an ISL that perfectly reflected a maintenance of premerger category and status, nor a merger that maintained an exact relative percentage on the list, I also wouldn't expect the wholesale theft of every single captain position at AirTran.

I've followed your posts on this Whackmaster, and I've noticed a gradual increase of patience on your part, and I commend you for that. No matter how ridiculous or unjust the outcome of the ISL, the expression of outrage in the APC forum format will always fall short of conveying the essence of how you feel...There is a natural tendency for much of your intended audience, the original SW pilots, to look upon your posts with a morbid fascination, ignore the factual implications, and dismiss them as "drama". When you stated above that you could "barely look any of them in the eye", it struck a nerve with me, and here is why:

Though there are probably many SW pilots who are in a sort of "secret sympathy" with the plight of the AirTran guys...that "sympathy" is suppressed by self interest... by the indisputable benefit they will see with the addition of every single one of the Former AirTran captain positions that will be transferred exclusively to their group. Clearly a windfall for their group that would not have happened without the merger, and as an aside, I can't imagine the greed of those SW pilots who come on this forum and defend what has happened...I have to believe, WM, that they are an extreme minority of their group...and that brings me to the point again, -though most I think, are in sympathy...even true sympathy, to the extent that they might even say "yeah, the ISL should have been done more equitably", but since it appears to be a "done deal" their individual mantra becomes "there was (is) nothing I could do about it"...."it was (is) out of my hands" etc. -All those individual "I's" who claim to be individually not responsible (and even in sympathy) all collectively add up to a group that is directly responsible...so all you "innocent good-guy Southwest pilots" out there...don't try to justify yourselves in private too convincingly...or shrug your shoulders with too much of a sense of inevitability...you are not innocent bystanders, you bear direct responsibility for a travesty of justice imposed on fellow pilots...guys who do exactly the same job and make exactly the same sacrifices and have exactly the same aspirations as you do in this life style.

And to all you SW captains who might happen to see this...in the future when you look across your cockpit at a glowering, brooding former AT copilot, I urge you to resist the temptation to even secretly justify your position....after all...you didn't really have anything to do with the windfall you've enjoyed, right?...either directly or indirectly...You just "went along with the program"...and you above all are just a pilot who happened to be hired by SW...you merely fly airplanes, my friend, and strictly in that capacity you have virtually nothing to do with the economic success of your airline. Realize too, that by the rest of the industry, your pilot group is by and large viewed as very arrogant because of this cram-down in seniority. That fact undoubtedly means very little to some of you, but don't be surprised if your very own Whackmaster isn't the only one who can barely stand to look you in the eye.

Oh, and BTW, for any of you SW who like worship the holy grail of pay rates as justification...yes you made more money...but not anything close to justifying this seniority grab...It could have been handled fairly with a gradual step up to pay parity for the AT pilots...in conjunction with a much more reasonably relative seniority maintenance outcome...without anyone on the SW side suffering a loss of category or position. It was a "merger" after all....of pilot groups not an acquisition of bodies to staple on the bottom of a list.

I love this guy! He gets it! I'm not even referring to the seniority deal but the attitude and arrogance that has been displayed by the SWA guys since everything happened. Wiggy, the next party that you throw, the kegs are on me!

#57

blakman7 , 01-02-2013 07:19 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Seat 1Engine

Already worked with many FAT pilots. None of them are like you. Thank God.

So let me get this straight. Your position is "737 Right" but you've flown with many Former AirTran Pilots? You mean the ones that aren't captains anymore, sitting in the right seat? Like the side of the airplane that you advertise sitting on? I guess there are two FO's in the flight deck these days. Man, the things I learn on a day to day basis.

#58

blakman7 , 01-02-2013 07:55 PM

Gets Weekends Off

I feel like I'm yet again talking to another SWA guy that is hiding behind.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by V169

That's true and all but dude, even a lot of the AirTran guys had a gut feeling that GK was bullcrapping about the 717's. The way that GK and management were flip flopping, in press releases mind you (not amongst each other in their offices over coffee and doughnuts), about the 717's was a huge red flag. If you believe for a second that the SWA guys didn't see that coming as well (if the SWAPA higher uppers didn't know already)......well then I'd have to say that someone needs to get a clue. I'd bet a paycheck that the 717 deal was in the works before SL10 was even constructed. GK knew what he was doing all along and unfortunately he was successful at it.

#59

CRJAV8OR , 01-02-2013 10:16 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakman7

I feel like I'm yet again talking to another SWA guy that is hiding behind.....

That's true and all but dude, even a lot of the AirTran guys had a gut feeling that GK was bullcrapping about the 717's. The way that GK and management were flip flopping, in press releases mind you (not amongst each other in their offices over coffee and doughnuts), about the 717's was a huge red flag. If you believe for a second that the SWA guys didn't see that coming as well (if the SWAPA higher uppers didn't know already)......well then I'd have to say that someone needs to get a clue. I'd bet a paycheck that the 717 deal was in the works before SL10 was even constructed. GK knew what he was doing all along and unfortunately he was successful at it.

Are you an AirTran Pilot? Did you read the agreement? Anyone who read the agreement knew in no uncertain terms that the the 717 was not sticking around for long at SWA. You do not go into such detail about what happens if the 717's leaves the building if that very thing is not being seriously considered. Again, did you read the agreement?

#60

CRJAV8OR , 01-03-2013 07:36 AM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakman7

You could stand to learn some more I guess. Two F.O.'s fly together regularly at SWA. My last trip was flown with two F.O's, one happened to also be qualified to sit in either the left or right seat.