We got a ta!
09-12-2016 | 02:04 PM
#91
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Our next SWAPA president.
It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is that SWAPA leadership thinks this is as much as we can get because they are best equipped to gauge resolve.
It wouldn't surprise me to see several of the company apologists get elected. They will then dial back the tough talking union rhetoric and help rebuild the "mutually beneficial" relationship that never existed.
It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is that SWAPA leadership thinks this is as much as we can get because they are best equipped to gauge resolve.
It wouldn't surprise me to see several of the company apologists get elected. They will then dial back the tough talking union rhetoric and help rebuild the "mutually beneficial" relationship that never existed.
My point being that even though SWAPA has a slightly better understanding of membership resolve, they do not make decisions based on that alone. And they shouldn't. Your resolve isn't rooted in a keen understanding of economics, company financials, vast amounts of industry research, and professional consultations.
"Listen, We know many of you really really want a unicorn. But c'mon, it's just not realistic. We've spent a year on this and done everything we know how to do. We've accomplished a lot, but we just can't do that. This is the deal. Sans unicorn. Sorry." - SWAPA
09-12-2016 | 04:17 PM
#92
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Joined: May 2011
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We just had a poll with 64% (close to 5,400) folks participating so I'm pretty sure that the BOD knows just how much the pilot group will settle for and most importantly how far they are wiling to go (or not) to get it.
09-12-2016 | 05:14 PM
#93
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,553
Likes: 397
I lurk all over the forums and consider myself pretty pragmatic and educated on the process.
I can't judge the deal yet, as I only have bullet points. From what I have seen, though, it is pretty amazing considering where we were two months ago.
SWAPA has worked hard to make this happen. We elected the right guy at the right time and he built amazing unity where we had none. I remember when Casey was appointed to the NC and guys were all over the union forum complaining about it. Where are the complainers now?
Unfortunately, SWAPA is full of guys who won't even change their tie in order to show unity. Those same guys won't go to the mat when we need to. I am not talking about a strike either, I am talking about when the company starts taking hostages and things get tense, those same guys will be picking up open time and yucking it up with the chief pilots in the office. What I am saying here is that we have gone about as far as we can go as a union and Jon knows it. Notice there was no strike vote. Think that was on accident? For crissake, we had guys picking up open time during the pickets, including our last union president.
I am pretty certain that the relationship between this management team and this pilot group is forever damaged. There won't be any company apologists back in union office.
As far as the AIP goes, I suggest that everyone take a more holistic look. Does it have everything? Nope. We are in federal mediation, though. I went over the high points with a delta crew that I jumpseated on the other day. They were pretty amazed at some of the work rules that we have combined with the pay and retirement in the AIP. I told them the good and the bad to be sure, but our bad isn't nearly as bad as what they have been dealing with post BK.
I can't judge the deal yet, as I only have bullet points. From what I have seen, though, it is pretty amazing considering where we were two months ago.
SWAPA has worked hard to make this happen. We elected the right guy at the right time and he built amazing unity where we had none. I remember when Casey was appointed to the NC and guys were all over the union forum complaining about it. Where are the complainers now?
Unfortunately, SWAPA is full of guys who won't even change their tie in order to show unity. Those same guys won't go to the mat when we need to. I am not talking about a strike either, I am talking about when the company starts taking hostages and things get tense, those same guys will be picking up open time and yucking it up with the chief pilots in the office. What I am saying here is that we have gone about as far as we can go as a union and Jon knows it. Notice there was no strike vote. Think that was on accident? For crissake, we had guys picking up open time during the pickets, including our last union president.
I am pretty certain that the relationship between this management team and this pilot group is forever damaged. There won't be any company apologists back in union office.
As far as the AIP goes, I suggest that everyone take a more holistic look. Does it have everything? Nope. We are in federal mediation, though. I went over the high points with a delta crew that I jumpseated on the other day. They were pretty amazed at some of the work rules that we have combined with the pay and retirement in the AIP. I told them the good and the bad to be sure, but our bad isn't nearly as bad as what they have been dealing with post BK.
09-12-2016 | 05:18 PM
#94
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,553
Likes: 397
You've got one, too? 
I don't believe polling data was the driving factor as to why this NC decided now is the time, and this was the deal that needed to be made. IP participation was high and increasing, membership support of SWAPA was increasing, our leverage and bargaining power was increasing. While not unanimous, I would be surprised if there's been a recent example of a more unified pilot group than what we've had the last few months.
How was our leverage countered? Hell, I don't know, but here's what I think:
-The root word of "mediation" is "medi", meaning "middle" or "center". If anyone thought a government appointed "mediator" was going to bless a "Platform and No Lower" or "Platform Plus" position during "mediated" "negotiations" that SWAPA agreed to be a part of, they were smoking crack. The Platform was a starting point, not an edict. But because it was intelligently created and realistic, it demonstrated our willingness to negotiate in good faith. But we were never going to get the whole thing.
-Finally, the company shows up, abruptly drops a billion dollars on the table and says "your move". Yeah, it should have been more, but "ONE BILLION DOLLARS" makes a solid impression on the mediator and most others involved. That was a tactic SWA borrowed from UPS management. What'd SWAPA give up? Having parking paid for? Flying better/newer jets for more pay?
-Another tactic GK has used in the past was giving employees the choice between "reward" and punishment. "If you guys don't want to play ball, I have no problem chopping your airline up and putting you on the street. (SIA 2)". I think everyone agrees GK et al has something up their sleeve. We're not going to grow organically and we're not going to stagnate. That leaves plenty of room for threats to be made out of purview of mediation and behind the curtains of non-disclosure agreements. That may explain JW's cryptic statement "There will be battles to fight in the future and we will need everyone."
-Let's not forget that the people involved in the process are human beings. How much time and effort are we going to ask (demand) from John and the NC and their families? Watch again the last video updates from Casey and John. They look like absolute hell. But that's because they've given more than anyone else. I'd like to meet the conceited SOB that thinks they can give more to this process and get more in return. I'd like to gut punch anyone who wants someone else to do it for them.
Anyhow, I think it's much more complicated than just polling data. Cheers.
I don't believe polling data was the driving factor as to why this NC decided now is the time, and this was the deal that needed to be made. IP participation was high and increasing, membership support of SWAPA was increasing, our leverage and bargaining power was increasing. While not unanimous, I would be surprised if there's been a recent example of a more unified pilot group than what we've had the last few months.
How was our leverage countered? Hell, I don't know, but here's what I think:
-The root word of "mediation" is "medi", meaning "middle" or "center". If anyone thought a government appointed "mediator" was going to bless a "Platform and No Lower" or "Platform Plus" position during "mediated" "negotiations" that SWAPA agreed to be a part of, they were smoking crack. The Platform was a starting point, not an edict. But because it was intelligently created and realistic, it demonstrated our willingness to negotiate in good faith. But we were never going to get the whole thing.
-Finally, the company shows up, abruptly drops a billion dollars on the table and says "your move". Yeah, it should have been more, but "ONE BILLION DOLLARS" makes a solid impression on the mediator and most others involved. That was a tactic SWA borrowed from UPS management. What'd SWAPA give up? Having parking paid for? Flying better/newer jets for more pay?
-Another tactic GK has used in the past was giving employees the choice between "reward" and punishment. "If you guys don't want to play ball, I have no problem chopping your airline up and putting you on the street. (SIA 2)". I think everyone agrees GK et al has something up their sleeve. We're not going to grow organically and we're not going to stagnate. That leaves plenty of room for threats to be made out of purview of mediation and behind the curtains of non-disclosure agreements. That may explain JW's cryptic statement "There will be battles to fight in the future and we will need everyone."
-Let's not forget that the people involved in the process are human beings. How much time and effort are we going to ask (demand) from John and the NC and their families? Watch again the last video updates from Casey and John. They look like absolute hell. But that's because they've given more than anyone else. I'd like to meet the conceited SOB that thinks they can give more to this process and get more in return. I'd like to gut punch anyone who wants someone else to do it for them.
Anyhow, I think it's much more complicated than just polling data. Cheers.
Everyone needs to read this. Look how far we have come in a few short months. We were this close to signing off on TA1. TA effing 1! Can you imagine if we accepted that turd?!
Jon and Casey have righted this foundering ship. It's up to us to keep it steaming ahead.
09-15-2016 | 10:58 PM
#95
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 306
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From: 737 Right
Prediction that I'll wager $100 on:
AIP2 will become TA2, membership will vote in TA2 as our new CBA.
Any takers on that wager? .....
WAY too much money on the table for people to do otherwise. Is it the ENTIRE platform -- NO, but it seems to be pretty damn close to it.
It is an immediate 15% pay raise followed by 3% for the next 4 years. AND it is an additional 5.7% of company money going into your retirement by going from the current 9.3% 401K to a 15 % B-fund -- transitioned in at 12% in 2016, 14% in 2017 and 15% in 2018.
Plus 100% full retro on pay, 401K and Profit Sharing.
It will easily pass.
AIP2 will become TA2, membership will vote in TA2 as our new CBA.
Any takers on that wager? .....
WAY too much money on the table for people to do otherwise. Is it the ENTIRE platform -- NO, but it seems to be pretty damn close to it.
It is an immediate 15% pay raise followed by 3% for the next 4 years. AND it is an additional 5.7% of company money going into your retirement by going from the current 9.3% 401K to a 15 % B-fund -- transitioned in at 12% in 2016, 14% in 2017 and 15% in 2018.
Plus 100% full retro on pay, 401K and Profit Sharing.
It will easily pass.
09-16-2016 | 12:52 AM
#96
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 31
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You mean the bullet points are somewhat near the platform... Why are so many people ready to vote based on a highlight reel??
It's discouraging to know that most won't even read the language when it comes out. Basing they're vote on bullet points and hearsay...
A 15% raise, retro check and b-fund will be peanuts in comparison to money lost for 60% of the pilots if Section 1 is relaxed. The language protecting furloughs against codeshare is great and all, but certainly raises a red flag to what was given up... Not to mention various news outlets reporting the new deal will allow restrictions to be lifted allowing the company to venture in codeshare and interline alliances.
Ironclad Section 1 or bust. Period.
It's discouraging to know that most won't even read the language when it comes out. Basing they're vote on bullet points and hearsay...
A 15% raise, retro check and b-fund will be peanuts in comparison to money lost for 60% of the pilots if Section 1 is relaxed. The language protecting furloughs against codeshare is great and all, but certainly raises a red flag to what was given up... Not to mention various news outlets reporting the new deal will allow restrictions to be lifted allowing the company to venture in codeshare and interline alliances.
Ironclad Section 1 or bust. Period.
09-16-2016 | 10:55 AM
#97
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,573
Likes: 283
From: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Reserve: how do you interpret the agreement on "owning" a reserve trip? I know that the new rules would allow for ownership of your reserve assignment trip from other pilots taking it but what about from the company changing the report time to an earlier time?
Let's say you're on PM reserve and the day before your reserve block starts scheduling assigns you a trip that reports at 18:00. You acknowledge the assignment and elect to "own" the trip. Can they still assign you a trip that reports earlier or are you relieved of being on call prior to the trip report time? (As is the case for most other carrier's reserve rules).
Let's say you're on PM reserve and the day before your reserve block starts scheduling assigns you a trip that reports at 18:00. You acknowledge the assignment and elect to "own" the trip. Can they still assign you a trip that reports earlier or are you relieved of being on call prior to the trip report time? (As is the case for most other carrier's reserve rules).
09-16-2016 | 01:56 PM
#98
Furloughed Again?!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 109
From: Boeing 737
What's the over/under on Jon, Casey, Mike, Tom and the NC sticking it out if this thing is voted down? I'm not talking about them being voted out, I'm talking about them walking out. They're exhausted, have sacrificed almost a year of time away from family, 24 hour negotiating sessions, emergency midnight phone calls. Stress, fatigue, you name it. If they come and say "this is the best we felt we could do" and we send them back for the cherry on top... what happens if they say "I'm out"?
I guess my point (I don't want to drop question grenades and walk away like TSMITR) is this: is the juice worth the squeeze? If we were to go back into mediated discussions again to gain that last few percent plus parking and uniforms... is it really worth the time, effort, and likely eroding support from the pilot group?
If the BOD sends this thing out then 8400 people can vote for or against it. Only that will provide the mandate for where to go from here.
We've said "SWAPA speaks for me" for almost a year. That didn't suddenly stop when we got an AIP. Let's see the language and a roadshow or two and then take it from there.
I guess my point (I don't want to drop question grenades and walk away like TSMITR) is this: is the juice worth the squeeze? If we were to go back into mediated discussions again to gain that last few percent plus parking and uniforms... is it really worth the time, effort, and likely eroding support from the pilot group?
If the BOD sends this thing out then 8400 people can vote for or against it. Only that will provide the mandate for where to go from here.
We've said "SWAPA speaks for me" for almost a year. That didn't suddenly stop when we got an AIP. Let's see the language and a roadshow or two and then take it from there.
09-16-2016 | 03:43 PM
#99
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 306
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From: 737 Right
What's the over/under on Jon, Casey, Mike, Tom and the NC sticking it out if this thing is voted down? I'm not talking about them being voted out, I'm talking about them walking out. They're exhausted, have sacrificed almost a year of time away from family, 24 hour negotiating sessions, emergency midnight phone calls. Stress, fatigue, you name it. If they come and say "this is the best we felt we could do" and we send them back for the cherry on top... what happens if they say "I'm out"?
I guess my point (I don't want to drop question grenades and walk away like TSMITR) is this: is the juice worth the squeeze? If we were to go back into mediated discussions again to gain that last few percent plus parking and uniforms... is it really worth the time, effort, and likely eroding support from the pilot group?
If the BOD sends this thing out then 8400 people can vote for or against it. Only that will provide the mandate for where to go from here.
We've said "SWAPA speaks for me" for almost a year. That didn't suddenly stop when we got an AIP. Let's see the language and a roadshow or two and then take it from there.
I guess my point (I don't want to drop question grenades and walk away like TSMITR) is this: is the juice worth the squeeze? If we were to go back into mediated discussions again to gain that last few percent plus parking and uniforms... is it really worth the time, effort, and likely eroding support from the pilot group?
If the BOD sends this thing out then 8400 people can vote for or against it. Only that will provide the mandate for where to go from here.
We've said "SWAPA speaks for me" for almost a year. That didn't suddenly stop when we got an AIP. Let's see the language and a roadshow or two and then take it from there.
+1 Zap. Well said.
09-16-2016 | 04:57 PM
#100
Furloughed Again?!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 109
From: Boeing 737
Reserve: how do you interpret the agreement on "owning" a reserve trip? I know that the new rules would allow for ownership of your reserve assignment trip from other pilots taking it but what about from the company changing the report time to an earlier time?
Let's say you're on PM reserve and the day before your reserve block starts scheduling assigns you a trip that reports at 18:00. You acknowledge the assignment and elect to "own" the trip. Can they still assign you a trip that reports earlier or are you relieved of being on call prior to the trip report time? (As is the case for most other carrier's reserve rules).
Let's say you're on PM reserve and the day before your reserve block starts scheduling assigns you a trip that reports at 18:00. You acknowledge the assignment and elect to "own" the trip. Can they still assign you a trip that reports earlier or are you relieved of being on call prior to the trip report time? (As is the case for most other carrier's reserve rules).
Come on Whack... You know darned well you're still gonna be responsible for your RAP! This is still the same airline after all. Change like that is a bridge too far.
