Negligent accounting
 

Based on the recent statement from the NC, we'd be achieving a $920M gain over the next five years with the TA.

The wholesale work rule concessions being offered amount to a $64M savings for the airline.

Is this a red flag for anyone else?

Who is the ALPA financial analyst we've been paying to cook these sham numbers??? And some of us (NC) are buying this? Are we supposed to believe flushing virtually our entire set of work rules down the toilet amounts to a paltry 12.8M annual savings for the airline?? Even our disgraced former MEC chair stated that by giving relief for the June meltdown, we saved the airline between 10-20 million alone. And that was relief for a weekend!


In other words, the 43% gain in hourly rates would be the same net expense to the airline as giving us a 40% pay raise while keeping our current work rules intact. (64 / 920 = 6.9% savings to the airline as a result of a gutted contract)

I call BS.

I call double BS on your BS

Ok so let’s vote this contract down.....then what??

Pound our chest like fools and demand more??

How do you suggest we do that??

How do you suggest we convince an anti labor NMB that we are worth more and company should just pay us or change this?? How do we do that??

The T/A could be 200% better but how do we convince an anti labor friendly NMB??

Let’s say we vote this down and maybe a year down the road we kick thousands aside for little gain or what if the economy tanks?? I can guarantee you the next offer will be even more sub par.

People need to pull their heads out of their asses and think long term.

How can you guarantee this per your post? You in Stu’s pants?
As for voting it down, if you feel you are worth this ****ty TA, then vote yes. Rest of us know we are worth and deserve more


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Is thinking long term is exchanging every ounce of leverage we'll ever have for a one time "bonus," some of the lowest hourly rates in the industry with no profit sharing? Not to mention a section 25 that offers less QOL than some regional airlines?

The player on the other side of the table is not the NMB. Don't sell yourself or our profession short. Let's not forget, the NMB has somehow been convinced (along with our NC) that this is a 920M gain offset by a savings to the company of only 64M. This is bullish**.

Our COO made more in his first 3 months at Spirit Airlines than you will for the next decade + under this T/A. If he gets us to sign off on this deal, he's worth every penny of that and more to SAVE.

Ah, the "live to fight another day" argument. Let me fill you in on something, this is the "other day".

How do we convince the company that we deserve more?? What ammo do we give the NC for that “battle”??

If this gets voted down it will be at least a 3 month process to get a survey done then how long to schedule more dates with the NMB when classes are being filled with our current CBA.

In a year maybe or maybe longer get $5 more an hour and losing a descent amount of cash.

Well in that time frame we are just gonna give Spirit Mgt more of a bonus by working under the current CBA.

Insults really??

you must be a Hillary Clinton lover, I will leave some coloring books and play dough in my V file so you feel better

I want some of what ya'll are smoking. This will pass by 70%! Just like the distance learning LOA the EVERYONE hated and voted NO for!

A 99% NO Vote would be a good start.

The airline NEEDS this deal. The airline needs to grow. Right now- if they operate 200 aircraft- they need close to 4,000 pilots. They can't afford the inefficiencies of our current CBA! Do we think it's a coincidence that, after 3 years of talks, they get us back to the table just in time to fly a summer schedule? Just in time to place another order?

This isn't reading between the lines- listen to their earnings calls- even Bob's Emails have been transparent. I don't know if their motivation can be any more apparent.

Easy - we are not “flushing our entire set of work rules down the toilet.”

What planet are you on?

Ok now explain how we ended up with the current deal and why the NC and MEC full heartedly support the TA? Are they all company shills? Gay frogs? What?

Wether you are a yes or No voter, he makes some very good points.

I would never disparage our Negotiating Committee, they've been mired in these negotiations for quite a while. Is it exhaustion, sleep deprivation, pressure from ALPA National, pressure from the NMB to get a deal done, Stockholm syndrome, groupthink, a desire to get their life back, running scared from a TRO, falling victim to highly skilled, highly compensated company negotiators?

I can't answer why we've been presented this insulting offer.

I’m against this thing too. I do feel that we could get a better deal than this TA. With that said, newsflash, it’s going to pass. These arguments aren’t going to accomplish anything, everyone has made up their minds

It's sad but I think you're right. I feel like the NC was under pressure from the NMB to put this out to a vote because the mediator thought it was a great deal (43% raise/biggest in history!!!) and was starting to shut us down at the table.

Just with PBS the company is saving a **** load of $$$. I have been calling Bs as well with these numbers. History repeats itself and god dam it , we are our own worst enemy. Viva el NO vote !

Heck even without PBS they will be. No transition, no more random reserve drops, and without those measly rigs that PBS brings.

Schedule integrity: gone

Being assigned to wait out your FDP at the airport by a gate agent: Reality (rationalizations: we get paid for it, they’ll never use that, it’s not the intent, are you kidding me?)

PBS: more work days, shorter vacations

All this for again, near bottom pay and a meager bonus. So much fear motivating yes votes. Repeating what others are saying, once you give up work rules, it is near impossible to get them back.

Why is it that it has to be were “asking for more?” On the contrary, a number of items would be not asking for more, but “giving up less.” We all knew we would be giving up certain provisions of the CBA, just not to the extent we see in the TA.

And how do you know it will be three months? How about six, or two? Simple answer is you nor anyone else knows. But here is the question to ask: “which one has the watches, and which one has the time”

This, right here.

How about getting scope and not just $5 more? Owning our growth instead of codesharing it and requiring a merger with aquisition. How about profit sharing? Forget the industry bottom pay and section 25. Most other major airline pilots in this country are getting $30k+ checks every year not just a one time signing bonus. Industry leading pay and I can see logic in forgoing it because the good times don’t roll forever, but with these rates we must participate in the profitability.

Finally a few posts that actually make sense.
Voting out of FEAR is self defeating.
This needs to fail with a strong NO vote to send a clear message to the NC and the company.
It's not only about asking for more, but rather giving up less.
These giveaways will never come back and are not worth the raises offered.
The company savings more that make up for the 40%.
The NC is beaten down by the hostile environment, sued and exhausted.
They did their best under the circumstances.
Time to send a message that we are not willing to work under these rules for the rest of our Spirit careers.
No schedule integrity, PBS, NO RES drops, out of base reserve, NO TX, all are money savers for the next many years which will never be regained.
We need to think long term and avoid the money grabbing temptation.

Lets see, 40% turnout for LEC elections, 50 guys showing up to a picket, guys calling up on All Calls asking questions that clearly show they have absolutely no fng clue whats going on, multiple multiple guys/gals CONSTANTLY violating the CBA to enrich themselves and you wonder where the unity is? C’mon.......you’re smarter than that.

You go back and start with the failed TA as a basis and go up from there.

No. You vote this down and you either fire or redirect your NC to renegotiate a new TA.

The NMB's job is to "close the deal." They couldn't care less if it's fair or not. They want a deal put out for a vote and hopefully closed. That's how they measure success, period, end of story. A deal being voted down brings them back and they want this deal done. Your most recent precedents of what happens after TA gets shot down are Delta and Southwest. I'm at Southwest. We essentially started over with a new NC, and new leadership and had a new and FAR superior TA about 9 months later. You couldn't even compare the two TA's, the first one was indeed THAT bad.

The mediators are allowed to lie and misdirect "in the interest of spurring the negotiations." That's why they use fear, uncertainty and doubt as one of their main tools, but in the end, it all lies with the membership and how you vote. They cannot coerce you into voting yes, but they can and do use your ignorance to their advantage simply to conclude the mediation.

Either this offer is adequate, or it's inadequate in relations to your peers. Either you're discount pilots or you're not. That's how the vote should go.

Agreed. If they didn't want it and plan to use it they wouldn't have bargained for it. NK reserve life is going to suuuuuuuuuucccck.

If this gets voted in a lot of us may have to look at coming over for some Luv. I can't imagine 18 days of reserve sitting airport hot standby while Miramar tries to figure things out. Section 25 alone should be causing everyone nightmares right now.

There's already been quite a few... I just hope those that are coming over aren't the weak sister yessies. We already have plenty of our own...

Finally, an educated person with an educated post! Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

My thoughts exactly! The most vocal no voters never even made the attempt to attend a picketing event, some even thought it was stupid to show some unity by wearing one of the lanyards. Yet they’re appalled that this TA was the best the NC could come up with. I’m not willing to vote this down in hopes that a better TA will surface in a few months, when the majority of this pilot group has shown lack of unity to stand behind the NC and MEC during this process.

Unfortunately pilot unity at NK lacks big time! I don’t know how it is at SWA. Voting this TA down and pushing it 1-2 years in hopes of getting a marginally better TA, would push back our amendable date back another 5 years plus an additional 2 years in negotiations (8-9 years total from today). All this in hopes of improving compensation $15-20/hr and whatever other small adjustments they’ll do the work rules is not worth it IMO. When you guys voted down your TA1 at SWA, you weren’t at the bottom of the industry in terms of pay, Ltd, scope etc., it’s much easier to be willing to wait for a better deal.

Vote no. Clean house with the NC MEC. Company will feel pressure this summer with lack of hiring (they will anyways if this passes, and new hires see that ****ty training pay), and stand our ground until a better, more industry standard TA is presented. Either way I think it’s time to clean house, as this TA is an embarrassment.........

BTW was at 2 picketing events.....and continue to wear the “ready to strike” lanyard

This is becoming an intelligent thread, thanks to all.
Let's ignore the usual trolls.
So let's give up and let the company get away with this steal,
because we are not unified?
Every NO vote does not have to be a unification statement, but rather a statement on the appalling nature of this TA.
To each their own, if that's what we have become.
I'm starting to believe that management's propaganda has worked and we do not see this as a real airline, just like they don't.
Most of US however will be here forced to work under these horrendous rules many years past Bob's, Bendo's and Christie's tenures!
Unless we all agree that NK is nothing more than a stepping stone...
That's what this vote will show more that anything.
Wait for the June meltdown or give it all away now?
No logic whatsoever.

Glad to hear about your support, so was I. If this TA gets voted down, I total agree with cleaning house and getting new faces, ideas and energy into the MEC and NC. I’m not sure the company would be in a huge hurry to give us something better unfortunately. If I remember correctly the NC were the ones who made the move back in November to resume negotiations. The company was quietly waiting for the first move and this was just before the busy Christmas travel season. They’re still finding pilots willing to work at NK (perhaps not the most experienced). The only motivator to them is the fact that they operate on a 5 year plan and it’s hard to grow if they don’t have their labor costs down.

This guy gets it ^^^

I’m not totally happy with this TA and I’m not sure 100% of pilots are happy with any TA. Certain changes will affect people differently. Even some changes on this TA that I hate, some other pilots love and I don’t understand why. I’m looking at this TA as pros and cons. Having a crappy LTD and loose scope all while being at the bottom of the barrel in terms of compensation is a huge con.
I would love for this TA to be voted down by an 85% or more margin to send a strong messege. If this TA gets voted down for 51-60% we will lose big time. The loss of compensation for the amount of adjusting they’ll do to swing it back to the other side will not be worth it.

Actually, we were at the bottom of the industry among our peers. We didn't even have B-plan, and we were told over and over that we would NEVER have a B-plan at Southwest Airlines. TA1 only included 0.7% increase in 401k match. Our peers at Delta, United and American all had either 15 or 16% B-plan.

Well... 9-10 months later, after changing NC and our union leadership, we had industry-leading pay rates, until Delta and subsequently United with their me-too clause passed us, and we also got a B-plan.

It all boils down to what you're willing to accept. Pay comes and goes... PBS was a major concession of the last decade, and you're giving it away for bringing you closer to industry standard? I also think you should read a little more about LTD at other airlines and see how things work elsewhere since many of you seem to be excited about it. Hint, you can and should do FAR better.

As for unity... well, that's up to your leadership, how communicative they are, and how fired up they are. When we were in negotiations, we were getting something almost every day from the union. When over 1,000 pilots showed up for a picket in Dallas during blistering heat... you couldn't ignore it. Mind you, this is the biggest koolaid drinking pilot group in the industry. Strong leadership and defined goals. Do you have that?

I don't know what to say to you guys. I'd like to see you engage in a pattern-based bargaining fashion, or at least get very close, but you seem to be going against the very lanyard many of you wear and it's puzzling, to say the least.

I've been waiting the pull the trigger hoping that what was presented here was tolerable. Section 25 is what really worries me. If we become Mainline Mesa I'll be making the switch if they'll have me.

I think our yes voters will be happy with the new gravy and think the signing bonus (which includes the next years :45 min a day period loss) will have them fat and happy for a few months. But hey, my 'retro' is costing me almost $2,000 and paying me $0 for the last three years. I should be grateful too.

Take a deep breadth man, relax. If you are close to upgrade you’d be foolish (as of now IMO) to jump to SWA as a forever F/O.

Your pay might have been low compared to your peers but it wasn’t NK low, especially the FO rates. Scope and LTD for you guys was pretty solid as well. Again all these things make the decision to shoot down a TA and wait for the next one much easier.

I’m against PBS but according to the surveys some people actually like pbs and I’ve found this to be the case with some people I talk to or fly with.

As far as compensation goes, the pay needs to come up for some CA/FO’s in some longevities. The 10-12 captain rates are pretty industry standard. Unfortunately the Alaska arbitration put the cap on where the rates are for our peers.

Will shooting down this TA be worth a small increase in compensation? PBS is here to stay I’m afraid.