I'm guessing you don't work here

Bendo generated “something” will probably surprise even in this pressured environment. Guy is a toxic 1990’s trained union busting relic.

Question is does he sue us before Christmas or after.

It wasn't intended to troll. I was being sarcastic and don't disagree with anything you said.
Thanks.

PTSD is strong around here between Bendo and Frankie sheesh.

Rule #1- If you haven’t been here for a previous negotiation, shut thy mouth.

nah I’m good.

I think he's in for a rude awakening in about two months

Never forget who you work for. It’s not PTSD, it’s experience. This management group would rather drive this place into the ground than pay us what we are worth. Never forget that.

He is the same one who said “people posting on the internet won’t cause any issues” or some crap like that.

We can all fill a trash can with what he doesn’t know about Spirit management and it’s history with negotiations.

Where’s my effin’ quid!!!

If I asked you to to tell me you have no idea what you’re talking about without telling me you have no idea what you’re talking about..this would be acceptable.

Haha. Exactly.

MCDU, what you know about quid? About 1000 of us are owed some big time quid!

To be fair, this is a different environment. We’re competing with Mesa for pilots.

Oh no doubt. And I think that environment will result in a deal, against everything that want to do, but they will have to do.

It’s just the arrogance of some to tell sailors who have been to sea a few times “waves arent that bad, looks calm from the docks”.

You act like this is my first rodeo…it ain’t

It’s really going to ruin your day when you figure out your opinion (read: vote) is worth exactly the same as his.

No one cares about battle stars on union pins, the room isn’t going to fall silent when I enter because the company sued me. The junior guys don’t care about who has been furloughed nearly 15 years ago. And I wouldn’t either if I were them.

Hate to break it to you sailor, none of that matters, the only important thing is the next contract, the one they do have a voice in.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Cool story 😎

Once again, I’m pretty sure you’re missing the point. Nobody is talking about battle stars(which maybe you should have a bit more respect for the guys that walked the line), TRO’s and furloughs.

I believe what Cinco is referring to, is this management team (specifically Bendo) is historically known for games and bs of getting our hopes up. Don’t for a second believe Bendo is going to hand out a TA without getting “his”. He’s ruthless and his past speaks for itself.

Hopefully, I’m proven wrong. Like you said, our votes are equal no matter how long you’ve been here. I just hope we have something to vote on sooner rather than later.

I don't get you. Nobody said anything about votes. They were talking about experience with your management team, and what can likely be expected from them.

Unless he was on the negotiating committee (he wasn’t) then he has no more “experience with the management team” than anyone else.

As for what we can expect from management? It’s not really some secret: The absolute least amount of ground they have to concede to keep the metal moving. In the history of airline negotiations there has never been a management group who have come to the table with empathy and concern that pilots will feel validated and appreciated. Any gains they concede will be solely out of recognition of pilot market scarcity, and not one single dollar more.

Anything above that will require pilot unity, which is where his opinion and vote means the same as the noob he told to keep their mouth shut.

He’s already told the NC his preference was a quick and dirty TA that would not involve teams of lawyers and cost analysts.

Now it’s simply a numbers game. They know a pay raise is inevitable, but each day it’s put off is found money as payroll is the most controllable expense. The other side of that scale is gambling on attrition, combined with examples of other airlines pay raises. They make decisions based on balance sheets and projections, not based on how they think pilots will feel vs their peers.

You don’t have to be a grizzled Spirit veteran to understand this is a zero sum game.

It's pretty clear to those with more experience the other guy was exhibiting undue optimism and naivete. He wasn't demonstrating the realities you present, and they were pointing that out. Nothing about votes...

You are like the more intelligent version of our Bandwagon/Softpayman. That's not a compliment.

Which is why we need 100% retro pay!

retro to when, exactly?

we’re in early opener now.

Well that is fantastic. Hopefully this means you've learned to manage your expectations and won't be disappointed when they start playing games with us.

But…but they can’t play games!! They need pilots and Bendo said he wants a fast TA!!

GMAFB!

And my quid! With interest!

By that measure you have exactly zero experience with NK management/negotiations, which means when it comes to anything related to a TA you should dutifully follow Cinco’s opinion about keeping your mouth shut :)

Retro always. With every new contract signed. With every airline.

Period.

And yet when I mention it to CAs and FOs I'm usually met with "What's retro pay mean?"

And if you think we're going to get a contract accomplished in early openers... well... I hope you're right, but I highly doubt it. I expect nothing less than the last contract series of events to play out long term, only to get thrown in the trash once the merger is complete. I hope I'm wrong.

Listen to, or read in your email, the latest Podcast talking about contract 2018. (IDK if you were here or not, but it's the one I was here for.) That's the sugarcoated version. It was way worse. And then read about Contract 9000, which I was not here for, and ask someone who was.

Man is everyone stuck living in the past at spirit? You’re probably all the same captains that completely lose their **** when one item is changed on a checklist….

But.. but…, this time is different! We’ve got record attrition and this is the best bargaining environment we’ve ever seen! AC are coming and I’m sure Teddy needs keep the operation afloat! Bendo said we’d get a fast TA!!

Haha, 2017 we had a bad attrition problem. Heck, we couldn’t get guys to show up to class!! I agree with Ed- gonna be 2018 all over again.

Company is playing chess and we’re stuck on Shoots and Ladders!

I don’t remember what the numbers in 2017 for attrition were, but it wasn’t really a problem. Our big leverage then was the huge disparity in our pay from other airlines. We got a big raise because management feared the NMB. Management wasn’t concerned about attrition. This time is different because attrition, not the NMB, is the concern. Though how concerned management is about our attrition is debatable. I’m cautiously optimistic, but very aware who we are dealing with.

Why should they be worried? They aren’t losing any great number of senior CAs. The senior FOs they are losing are easily replaced by newbies who will only cost them an Airbus type rating and maybe $50k the first year - H€||, they probably make money on the deal, especially when you consider the non vested DC forfeited by the departing FOs and junior CAs. And every departing CA opens up an upgrade slot to convince another senior FO to stick around for awhile and, being junior to the departed guy, will be doing the same job for less money.

I think screwing the newbies is starting to screw the whole pilot group.

Agree fully with this.

I'm not commenting on what will happen with your management. Only that those with experience are telling the guy without NK experience that he/she is likely being overly optimistic. And you always seem to need to defend the happy-talk'rs... We have a guy like you, and he was very detrimental during our last negotiations.

Possibly a strain on the training department is the issue. Being maxed out and not being able to keep up with staffing the incoming planes. Time will tell, you could be right though.

Flying slightly more than 2019 pre CovID yet we have 30 more airplanes. Assets sitting around or not flying the high utilization rate required for $50 tickets. This model isn’t working.

Au contraire. The NK training department was accustomed to a 15% increase in pilots annually. It’s the Big Three, with their early retirements and multi-type fleets that are struggling with training. Otherwise NKs attrition would probably be even worse.

What's the cliff notes from the ALPA call today?

Unfortunately I wasn't able to tune in. I've been shook up since this morning when I had a virtual accident in my DriveSim driving simulator at home. Was off today so I like to do casual Sunday afternoon drives in the sim to relax. I was driving the Blue Ridge Parkway in Virginia and had just gone through a 4 way stop when I was T boned from a car running the stop sign. Wasn't in the frame of mind to listen in but I'm guessing it's something along the lines of "good progress was made but we're still far apart on many issues" along with they can't divulge the details of the negotiations due to NDA as well as to keep the upper hand in negotiating position. Similar to the Town Halls I would guess.