Sounds like company only wants to increase first year and training pay.

Sounds like the NC won’t entertain that kind of proposal…..

No one should be surprised. This is the same playbook they used last time. “Get it done quick” they say. Then blow smoke up out asses for three years

How can that be??? I thought this environment was so different?

Hopefully the NC immediately threw it right back across the table and laughed. Anything to help accelerate the exodus. 🫶🏻

Where did they say that? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because I think you may be joking.
Nothing to that effect was said. All I heard was a consistent message of focused negotiations from a position of strength.

The video is on the ALPA website, or if you keep your contact info up to date, then it should have landed in your inbox about an hour ago.

MCDUs statement seems pretty accurate and not a joke.. Go back and watch the video, specifically around minute 19.

COMPANY wants, not Union.

And that seems to be what they were saying; company wants to stop attrition and attract newhires, union says ain’t happening without economic gains across the spectrum for all pilots.

NC and MEC solid on:
No to sign on bonuses
No to LOA to raise first year and training pay
No to “retention bonus” to “reward” newhires for staying.

Increases for all or nothing for all.

Management and ExCargo would clearly love to throw cash at year 1 and training and be done with it, but that won’t happen.

I had a good laugh at how many people asked specifically about our asks and how many times the NC had to tell them they won't bargain in public. This extension is mostly, if not all, economic and NOT QOL oriented. Section 25 is NOT a section that can be bargained for rapidly.

I like the MECs position and currently happy with the companies willingness to talk.

wish I was joking. They pretty clearly stated the company’s economic proposal dealt with first year and training pay to attract new pilots.

I’d make them pay year 1 @ $150 an hour with full insurance and 75 hr MMG starting day one of intro. That way it would actually make it more cost effective to raise everyone’s pay than to allow attrition and backfill with newbies. That’s a far more rationale (and humane) plan than just continuing to cr@p on the newbies.

Right now the management seems to be entirely happy to operate an airline with soon-to-be-topped-out-at-old-rates CA over 12s and guys barely off consolidation. Cinco’s screw-our-junior-brethren plan doesn’t seem to be very effective, and it is hurting our junior brethren.

You’re incredibly ignorant. Those horrible training rates and first year pay is the only chance we have to get gains for all. So if you call using that leverage to benefit all of us, so be it. I’ll gladly admit that.

Anyone on first year understands that the gains will be worth it, if they choose to stay. If they don’t, I wish them best.

So you repeatedly assert. Yet Alaska made gains for all, without screwing over their newbies.

Worth it or not worth it is not the issue. Necessary and effective is the issue, and so far no evidence whatsoever of either.

So how long must this not work before you’ll admit you are wrong?

Right now newbies are being used by management as cheap replacements for attrition. For all practical purposes, negating the leverage that attrition would otherwise give you. Threatening management with having to backfill people leaving with even cheaper replacements doesn’t seem like it’s the threat you claim it is.

I’m picturing excargo like this

https://theaudiodope.files.wordpress...mer-fran1.jpeg

Curious what people and management think is gonna happen with the influx of pilots. Y’all have bad attrition but had a well of fresh pilots to bring in but with the increases at regionals the only thing NK really has to offer is a320 type and maybe bases that might be attractive to those who currently commute. The prospect of an instant $10 raise off old rates which then doubled year two was great but with the recent huge increases the pay aspect isn’t a huge pull to regional pilots. Best case it’s a lateral move financially at this point. I don’t see spirit being as attractive and I don’t see as many people readily jumping ship to join. Begs the question with problems keeping people already and the regional pool drying up what’s company gonna do

But can you either prove any of Cinco’s assertions or disprove any of mine? That’s the issue, not your fantasies.

I don't think he's saying to fix everyone's pay and leave 1st year crap...

But maybe you're saying fix 1st year and not give everyone else a raise? Otherwise I don't understand the argument.

Management needs to fix 1st year pay, the union says "yes, and also bring everyone else up to current market".

Not hard.

​​​​

Filler filler….

If it were up to Cargo, he would have agreed to an LOA with management a year ago to bring FO pay up for first year and then he would scratching his head today wondering why management has no intention or motivation to schedule early openers.

But like CLE said, Cargo gets off on making himself the champion of the first year pay.

But here is the irony, I’ll bring you up to speed. Ol Cargo used to be at Compass and he would come on the Spirit forums and chastise first year pay and proclaim how he would never come here because he can make more at Compass. One bankrupt company later, now he is here, for the same pay he swore he would never work for. However his song remains the same. The American pilots had to return him from their forums because he became an annoyance over there.

Irony has nothing to do with it. Right now the issue is sort of one about scope. Attrition isn’t bothering management much because everybody being lost is being replaced by someone cheaper. Unless and until nobody is accepting CJOs from NK, management can tolerate the current attrition forever. Cinco continues with this argument that allowing first year guys to be. Screwed somehow gives everybody else tremendous leverage, but there is scant evidence to support that. We’ve had first year people at this ridiculous pay level since 2018 and the alleged “leverage” hasn’t worked so far.

So I ask again, Cinco, how long does this shibboleth of yours of screwing over the newbie have to not work before you admit it’s not working?

And I’m saying, sure - bring first year pay up ti $150 an hour with a 75 MMG and full insurance from day one of intro if they want to raise first year pay. It’ll make backfilling attrition four times as expensive as it is for management now. Make current levels of attrition unaffordable for management. Then they’ll HAVE TO negotiate higher pay. As it is right now, the very cheapness of backfilling with newbies is keeping the company from having to address attrition.

Not hard.

^^^^And this right here is why we should all pray to our God tonight, thankful Cargo isn’t let anywhere close to the decision desk for any of the negotiations.

Imagine if our NC came on yesterday and said “we have entered into an agreement with management to give first year only, raises to $150 an hour for first year. You will take a pay cut for second year, so yeah, but hey, we made first year so expensive, they will now have to pay everyone more money”

Of course, because it’s clearly cheaper to pay everyone more money than first year $150/hr.

Thank you Jesus, thanks for keeping Cargo away from the grown up table.

Answer the question. How long does your tactic have to not work before you become convinced it won’t work?

Because you’ve been singing that same song for over four years and it ain’t worked yet.

But I do appreciate your piety. 😉

THIS PHOTO NEEDS TO BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY!!!!

it’s one thing to use a funny photo but since this is the ACTUAL photo of Excargodog this needs to be removed.

Mods,

please remove this photo since this is the actual photo of him!!!!

Looks a little skinny for a true airline pilot. Body by Sbarro.

Yeah thanks, that was already pointed out to me.
But the take away from the zoom call really should not be that the company only wants to increase first year and training pay. Even management knows that would not fly. It was the first week guys. Our NC is negotiating from strength.

Probably not the best strategy considering this is the point in which NK pilots have the most leverage.

Management is coming to the table, which is an acknowledgement that they don't desire the current attrition level.

So would you agree to fix only 1st year pay and training pay and leave the rest of the rates alone?

And... Answer THIS question:

Management wants to only fix 1st year pay. Which is what you say will fix the pilots problems. So you think management is setting their own trap and just don't know it?

People at NK have been saying that for over four years. It hasn’t budged management an inch. And why should it? NK isn’t losing many senior CAs - except to retirement.

The people they are losing - junior CAs who will spend a long time on reserve and FOs are easily replaced as long as new hire classes remain full, replaced by FOs costing them about $50 K that first year and by upgrading FOs with less longevity than those CAs departing. It’s a net decrease in payroll for management.

And management gets to keep the unvested parts of the 401k of those departing. Management is coming out ahead on the deal.

Where is the ‘leverage’ in that?

Cinquo and a few others have been advocating this “strategy” for four plus years, and it hasn’t worked yet. It is the equivalent of bringing in cheap labor to replace the people quitting, negating the leverage of attrition. Why would management raise everyone’s wages to avoid doing that? What other airlines are successfully implementing this policy? Or have implemented this policy? Where has it ever worked?


How long will it have to not work before you’ll be convinced it isn’t going to work?

Meanwhile your soon to be brothers at B6 are rumored to be going back and forth with management between 17% raise (MGT) and 20% raise (union).... a raise for all, not just newbies.

Just propose taking the B6 A320 rates with a snap-up to whatever they end up with in this negotiation as your way of helping the company merger go more smoothly.

So management is setting a trap for themselves and just don't know they are screwing themselves?

The leverage is attrition. We wouldn’t have nearly the attrition we do now if we raised first year pay, which is exactly why management only wants to raise 1st year. They aren’t thrilled about saving money on the rotation of cheap first year pilots.

Its been 1month of negotiations, not 4years. It’s gonna take a little time.

Haha. Exactly. Cargo has it all figured out.

And to CargoDog, yes the plan is working. 4 years ago we didn’t have the attrition because guys like you were still trying to come over here and fly the Airbus for $50/hr

Thankfully the ExCargoDogs willing to work for $50/hr are drying up. And because we didn’t raise first year pay 4 years ago, attrition is the reason and only reason why management is at the table.

Thankfully the number of guys like you, wanting to work for so cheap, is ending, and rates will have to come up.

It wasn’t a critical issue over the last 4 years. Remember CovID?

Classes are not full. There are quite a few no shows each class. That’s facts.

Things also were not at critical mass yet in the timeline. We have been constantly increasing training capacity to handle attrition. Remember doing anything but giving the pilots raises is managements goal so that’s what they have been trying to accomplish. They are currently maxed on training. Now have no shows in class. Now have less applications bc of massive pay increases at regionals. Most importantly combined with all of that, deliveries that were delayed during covid are arriving quickly.

Management may be covering attrition and even a little growth but they are covering it with vastly lower experience which carries its own set of other issues. They however are not covering the amount of growth for the increased rate of deliveries. Lower attrition would allow that training capacity to be used for growth which is what they need. If they solve that problem alone they don’t have any more problems and can stall until a JCBA and they are cashing their golden parachutes.

Ask yourself how much flying we do today compared to pre CovID and ask yourself how many airplanes we currently are operating compared to pre CovID. Ask yourself if what we have today for utilization is what management wants and why higher aircraft utilization is not happening. Also ask yourself how much utilization factors into spirits ability to become and stay profitable.

You haven’t got a clue if you think simply replacing pilots leaving with low cost new hires is something management is ok with and also happy with. Go get a clue.

The leverage IS attrition, but what demographic is doing the attrition.

The attrition in the senior CA group is negligible. Management knows these guys aren’t going to go over to a legacy and restart at the bottom for 92 an hour on reserve. The attrition that counts is FOs and to a lesser extent junior CAs. And with legacies hiring, these people are leaving, but as long as management can replace them with cheap help, they don’t care. They have no real incentive to raise pay generally. Not when they can replace those leaving at $50 k a year.

They’ll be quite happy to never raise CA pay and backfill their FO losses with guys who work for $50k a year. It’s like a “B” scale. It allows current FO jobs to be replaced by more and more less experienced people. And those people will keep coming as the regional model cracks and breaks, because a type rating in a full sized airliner eventually gives them a step up the ladder to someplace else. And as long as management can replace them with another $50k guy, that’s fine with management.

And it’s been four plus years that Cinquo (and a few others) have been saying that screwing over the newbies was giving us leverage and nothing has changed yet.

Not a bad idea, especially with a JCBA to follow closely. And the mediator can’t say it’s unreasonable.

bingo.............

The company can't say it's unreasonable either.

NK has increased their flying more than the legacy airlines have and the legacies aren’t losing pilots to NK much. What you are touting as evidence of success are general issues throughout the industry. Everybody has training constraints, but not everybody has created their own “B” scale by allowing management to onboard labor at a huge discount to industry standard. The only way that attrition can be stopped is higher pay for those not attriting. Triple newbie pay and the cost of attrition will triple. That’ll get managements attention.

Sure, let’s take JBLU rates as Alaska just TA’d rates well above the JBLU rates and JBLU is working on higher rates too.

Yeah, let’s agree to rates lower than the new standard of what pilots are worth with the hope of a catch up to JetBlue. No way. Alaska rates reset the bar, JBLU is working on those rates now for their negotiations, and so should we. And IF the merger fails, we will go back to our own section 6, taking a few years at least, trying for higher rates. No f'in way

Any talk of JBLU rates left the room as soon as the Alaska TA came out.

Swing and a miss, again Cargo

I’ll use your words, “why are you willing to screw over your pilots with low pay?”