I do not get the impression Lemonade was/is being a troll.....merely trying to learn the nuances of the CBA in an effort to duplicate your awesome 25 days off. Hell, I'd like to get 25 concurrent days off too......

Perhaps you shouldn't be so sensitive?

Jey here is why some of us get upset when guys from Delta (and it always seems to be one from Delta) talk down on us.

You need to stop comparing Delta with Spirit. You are a 10000+ pilot group with several hundreds of airplanes. You have a contract that was negotiated over and over many more times than ours was. Some negotiated during good times, some in bankruptcy.

Our last two was negotiated in bad times against a privately held company. There was a lot of guessing on ALPA's side. Not to mention our airline almost went out of business in 2008. When we voted on the TA in 2010, the economy was (and still is today) in the toilet. We now have 40 airplanes and 630 pilots. I think that is a new record here. We are tiny. Did Delta have an industry leading contract when you had 40 airplanes? I have no clue. You tell me.

It is very easy to say that your pay is higher if that is all you are looking at. You know nothing about our contract, and why would you. We have a lot of things that you don't. Your contract is most likely better all thing considered, but we are not as far behind as you may think and many of us would not trade with you. Matching numbers on APC is the worst light you can show us in.

But it looks like with your new TA you guys will not raise the bar either. May be among the legacy carrier you will look good but you will not beat SW in their category. That much is for sure. But why would I compare SW to DL? I am glad you guys will get a raise! It will help us next time around. This last time we have manged to break away from the bottom and got closer to the average. Next time we may have a 100 airplanes or more. May be the economy will be a bit better too. We are also public now. I think we will have a good chance to catch up and pass some airlines and be above average. I doubt we will raise the bar, but we will raise the average. And that is good news to all of us.

And as far as comparing soft time. Sure. But lets not compare 767 international layovers with 320 domestic layovers.

Norm,

I really wasn't trying to start a "my airline is better than yours" thing. I'm sure our contract is better than yours on the whole, because of the reasons you mentioned.

I just hate to see guys accepting management's squeezing more out of us. We know what "shiny jet syndrome" is, maybe this is "I'm lucky that airline x keeps me around syndrome." But to be happy about having to fly 90 or 95 hours to make what you need to make because of a low hourly rate, IMHO, is bad. To be happy about getting xx hours while having 11 days off, IMHO, is bad. I'd rather be beat with a bat than work 19 or 20 days a month. That's all.

On your points about our TA. I'm still a no, but many things are better than they first appeared. I think the pay rates are lower than we should agree too. However, according to some charts the union has put out, (and I have no idea how accurate their data is WRG to the SWA pay), when you add in the dc contribution, we will surpass their compensation by 2015. Again, I need to study it more, but it may well be raising everyones bar, and it begins now, not 2 years after the ammendable date.

Point is , alot is better than it first seemed. Food for thought.

Do I expect your next contract to surpass whatever we sign, or our current CBA? no. Spirit obviously doesn't generate the revenue or have the economies of scale to cover that kind of cost at this point. Just keep improving every time and don't be happy working like crazy if it's just to line BB's pockets.

No spin dude. You said you did nothing and got paid. In reality, you took your vacation. We all do it. Get over it.

Fair enough. But I am sure you understand it does seem like trolling if you drop two one liner posts with little content.

And for the record, I don't need to work that hard. All the bills were still paid on time when I made almost nothing on furlough. Actually I am looking at a 25 day long vacation (using two weeks only) that I could extend up to 32-35 or may be even a bit longer if I wanted to, and still collect my guarantee. All that while I am already set up for a transition conflict. It really does not suck working here.

Some people work 90h lines at top paid outfits as well. At Spirit there are plenty of guys who fly their line and float a trip for vacation every other month. Actually according to our CBT a pilot is free to drop everything month after month (no pay protection though) as long reserve coverage supports it. Also because of our new CBT, after some arbitration, it seems we have managed to force the company to hire more pilots than we have ever had per plane. I thought that was pretty cool.

Anyways. Good luck with that TA. The better you do, the better the chances for for the rest of us.

Point taken.

This is key. No matter how you slice it, no "big" airline has gotten anything significant done in the last, what, 10 years or so. We should be building on USAirs, CAL's, AMR's and UAL's contract. Instead we've done our own thing on the merger contract, the many improvements outside of section 6, and now it looks like a full on renegotiate (maybe) before our peers, and THEN be ready to negotiate again by the time (and maybe before) they wrap up their originals. I think the key is the ball keeps moving forward.

(although I still need a few tweeks before I'm a "yes")

Just one more note, and a change of gears, to the PBS thing.

The benefits that you describe are the BIG advantages of line bidding. No argument there. PBS also reduced staffing requirements. (this was my major heartburn when we went to PBS while I and my co-furloughees were still out).

Just to give you a glimpse of the positives. Before, on line bidding, let's say I wanted a few specific days off. Well, first I sorted through the bid pack to find the lines that met that. Let's say that leaves me with 15 available lines. Now maybe I'm a commuter. cut out the non-commutables, now maybe I'm down to 7 or so. Now are those desirable lines, i.e., can I hold them?

On PBS, I tell the thing what days I want off, and it gives them to me. Granted, my seniority allows that, but if you're willing to accept crappier trips, you can dictate days off down to a pretty low seniority. It's nice flexibility. And the more senior you are, it becomes HIGHLY customizable. [show times, credit times, release times, layovers, legs per day, credit per day, etc..etc..]

Anyway, in case you haven't thought of the other side of the coin.

I'm sure computer savvy trumps seniority at times too.
By the way I don't mean that in a bad way. As a point of comparison, there are still guys who can't do their bid without the paper bid package.

It absolutely does, sometimes.

Jay.. did you use to work at NK? or am I thinking of another Jay that left for Big "D".

I have used PBS before at all levels of seniority. And I am a computer guy and I learned the thing in and out. I could work it. You could tell the difference month after month, especialy once you are bidding specific trips. Toward the top you are basically building your dream line. I had 18 or 19 days off all commutable both end with 82ish credit. All that at a commuter. Ohh and all weekends off also.

But like you have said the cut in staffing is huge. It is only worth it for the top 30%. Especially in a stagnation scenario it is brutal on the bottom people. With line bidding, and with the high staffing levels forced by the transition period and our language we can make some ridiculusly long vacations. There is guys who never use all their vacation (I think top is 5 w/ year). So they just start floating trips for pay.

I used to be a pref bid advocate but the way we have it here, my vote is for line bidding especially with our 4 days off. It sucks for the company to build lines because they have to maintain a high level of reserves for transition but then those often don't work during mid month. Right now i.e. FLL base has 159 total lines of which 121 are hard lines. The rest are reserve and relief (composite) lines. So they need to keep about 24-25% non hard lines to play with. Relief guys fly more because they do get trips on their line but they also get 15 days off. Still a far cry from the 10-11% reserves who always flew at my last place.

So there is a lot to the topic.

No, not me. Been here a good while. Came from the t-prop commuter days.

Good thing, I think Shifty was about to lay into negotiating committee 1.0 from 2006.

Yes, good thing. Lurking here a long time before joining showed me that anyone who worked with the Lawman was going to get shot.

Those guys worked hard and never saw any thanks from the Spirit pilots. If you're reading Jay, thanks for the effort.

Jay,

I have seen your pride in Delta in someone else I've known for most of my life. I call the guy with the pride "Dad". He loved that airline until he was about 48ish. Right about the time Reid showed up his pride disappeared and the sense of abandonment came out in anger and frustration. His retirement was threatened, he got his lump some and got out while his monthly pension is now paid out at $1 for every $100 it should be...he gets $800 a month instead of $8000.

I am telling you this because before you come on a Spirit thread telling us that our contract is substandard. Try going on a Fedex, UPS or Southwest thread and brag about what you tentatively just got so they can tell you how it rates.

I am glad things are going well at Delta right now since many, and possibly most of my family friends work there still. However, keep in mind that if the internet existed when my dad was a L1011 FE he might have gone on a Southwest forum and bashed them for flying so many legs with a subpar contract and pay!

Another interesting conversation would be, did Spirits Pay rates help you get that TA? Because if I know Delta Pilots and I know a few, they all asked me all the time what our pay rates were going to and did not understand how an A320 driver at Spirit could be making more than one at Delta.

Also keep in mind that those new pay rates would be a lot harder to pay if Delta did not go bankrupt and lump their pension debt on the taxpayer of which most was just wiped out by the courts an PBGC.

I will put my QOL up against Delta, Southwest, United, etc. any day of the week. The difference is not QOL it is Risk. Our company is currently more risky than yours but then again when Delta furloughs again one day...and they will it will be around 2,000 pilots at one time and the furlough will last 10 years. Unless the imaginary pilot shortage helps out!

Last note Preferential Bidding gives the company a lot of power of you that you do not realize until it is to late, ask Continental guys. Enjoy the warm fuzzy feeling while it lasts.

Did not mean to type that much I am going to go get ready for my 23 days off next month!

nah, not me:) anyone that works on those committees gets my respect.....

Just like you Plain Romrad.. I respect your 4 strips.

Oh, I'm with ya. I would say I have pride, but the honeymoon was over when we sent 1300 to the street, dumped what was a pretty strong no-furlough clause from our contract, and then let (or at least helped facilitate) the RJ explosion at DCI. I will admit our warts as quick as anyone who doesn't work here.

I don't agree with your furlough prediction, simply because of our retirement numbers. Of course I could be wrong, but just looking at the math, it seems highly unlikely for the next 15+ years. One day, maybe, who knows.

I also know what your saying about PBS, another thing I was livid about when we went to it during the furloughs further reducing the staffing requirements. It's not a new thing for us now. It's been here for, IDK, 7-8 years. I've used it both junior and (relatively) senior, and still prefer it on the whole with it's admitted negatives.

Again, it wasn't my intention to knock NKS pilots or the contract, I just hate to see us as pilots be happy with what management is trying to set as the "new norm." To convince us that we need to keep our contract costs down to industry minimums so the company can compete or even survive, all the while making big profits, and lining their pockets and golden parachutes. Skybus was, IMHO the worst manifestation we've seen of this in recent memory, and I don't want to see something else like them ever again. (not saying that that is what Spirit is, btw)

P.S. I know exactly how ours rates against at least some of those. I even worked in FedEx flight operations back in the day and still have enough contacts to know their CBA pretty well. You might be surprised how this TA could have us positioned by 2015. Like I said, everyone needs to keep moving the ball meaningfully forward.

As we are (somewhat) talking about Delta here, might be worth to point out they are (somewhat) copying what Spirit has been doing in a limited market...

Delta tests ‘basic economy' fares on some flights | ajc.com

On a change of venue, the guy I flew with today was speaking to his pal whom had just been interviewed and has a class date.

Seems my guy with his 138 hours of time in the aircraft and no connections other than being a new hire with all the enthusiasm that entails walked in his pal's resume'.

He walked it in by camping out in the parking lot at Miramar and "accidentally" asking a women named "Sandy" from HR at 4:56 pm if she knew a women named "Sandy".

Then the ensuing pitch and the resume' for his pal.

Apparently, Sandy was flattered by this rather brusque' approach. (for SkyBolt Brusque' is a Texan term for "all hat and no cattle"). Maybe French but apparently I'm a Retard as I'm told daily.

That is a good friend.

It's a great story. Boots on the ground and friendship can still win over the evil doer's on the these damn "internets".

Welcome aboard new guy!

Do you happen to know when he interviewed and what class date he got?

Great story, and I am too, 6 times a day (based on two landings) lol

Sprit has 75's now? was told I was 7 in trail of a Spirit 75 the other day.... info?

yep... until our 330's show up this fall;)

321's down for maint.

Subservice?

Yep, Omni filling in

Quick Question
 

Are the "Requirements" listed on Spirits page set in stone? I meet every requirement except the 4000 TT. I have 3300 TT but I work for a company that flies me 300 hours a year so that would take a while. I am curious what times people are actually getting hired with. Also, is an internal rec. still an unofficial requirement?

Thanks,

UNDGUY

Nothing is engraved in stone here so don't let it stop you. Internal rec. is the best thing you could do but even with that the overflow of apps makes it almost impossible to get an interview any more. Good luck.

I guess I'm going to have to start hanging out downstairs at the "Metropolitan" bar. Are you guys still staying there? LOL

I forgot which hotel has the Metropolitan bar but if it makes you feel any better our VP of Flight Ops had a pizza lunch for everyone in corporate today and affirmed 30 more planes in the next 5 years with ongoing hiring. Don't give up.

Had an executive on my flight the other day. This is what he had to say. Take it for what it's worth.

- We are going to get hurt big time with the construction of the terminal in FLL. We will very likely get a base reduction.

- DFW and ORD will both become bases.

- Next expansion in Mexico especially the West coast. Houston also on the radar.

Thanks bubi. This isnt the first time Ive heard that. That construction will be a real mess. I was told there was a time that more gates were up for grabs at Term 3 but they slipped away

FWIW- I heard from the rumor mill... FLL flying will be reduced by 60% for 18 months during the construction.

Currently, the runway expansion and redevelopment of T4 in FLL are the only items approved for construction (whether to tear down T2 and T3 and build one big building with the new T4 or just extend/expand T3 and link all the concourses together inside security is still under consideration). Both impact Spirit, since we are not only the largest user of FLL, but also the primary tenant of T4 and the south side of the airport.

Here's a link to the current plan for T4. Page 12 of the report will show you the transition plan, and page 13 the new initial layout of T4. T4 currently has 10 gates, including the 6 customs and immigration gates. These 6 gates will be maintained, while the 4 other gates (H1, H3, H5, & H7) will go away, but be replaced by 4 new gates on the 'new T4', though the need for construction crews to actually build this new addition will almost certainly eliminate the use of H1, H3 & H5 without replacing them with new gates during construction. Then H2, H4, H6, & H8-10 go away and get replaced with more than 6 gates (though I can't see how that will work as neatly as the first 4 gates, since the customs access will need to be replaced too). That's part of the reason why T4 will be linked to the T3 south gates inside the secure side, essentially linking the 'JetBlue' concourse to the 'Spirit' concourse. Though I can't find the place where I read it, the plan is to put some of Spirit's flights on T3. Also, the leases for the gates in FLL came up for renewal late last year, and one of the goals of the new lease agreements was for the airport to take back some control over the gates and to lower the 'exclusivity' of individual gates - ie, less permanent XYZ airline gates, and more shared gates. Likely part of the reason was to get access to JetBlue's gates for Spirit.

Now Spirit is cheap, so they'll do what's cheapest for them. If it is pulling back the FLL hub for a time rather than pay extra for gate leases (something JetBlue might do), they'll do it. Spirit carries more passengers in and out of FLL than anyone else, so we do have some leverage, which is why I don't believe that Spirit will lose 40% of their gates (and up to 70% of Spirit's FLL access, since we share the customs gates with JetBlue, Avianca, American, and Caribbean) without other airlines feeling the pain too. A 60% pull down of FLL seems a bit drastic - that would allow Southwest, JetBlue, and Delta to make MAJOR inroads on Spirit's dominance in FLL, as Spirit would go from the #1 to the #4 carrier out of FLL. That's a pretty steep hit, especially when you consider that, once the new runway and new T4 are built, Spirit (and everyone else) will have higher usage fees in FLL, currently one of the lowest cost airports to operate out of in the country (vs. MIA, which is one of the most expensive).

Old "Double Tree" in Romulus...

I would argue that the primary reason is the ease of Customs access for JB customers. JB just added BOG and KIN from FLL. With Spirit shrinking and JB growing in FLL I don't think Spirit would need any of JB's gates.. Or this is just a set up for a merger?:eek:

Great news. Which brings me to my next question: Does anyone know a proposed class date for July from the recent postponement?

Merger?
That would be like trying to merge a flea market with a Chuck E Cheese.

Ok, I'll admit it. That was funny.

LOL, nice mess that would be.