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crosswind landing techniques Challenger 604

Old 12-06-2018, 05:21 AM
  #11  
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Yes, at some point, the simple wind down, top rudder wonít be enough. Of course that varies with type. Then we have more and more airports going to all parallel runways, leaving pilots to do the rest.

Once you get North of 25-30 knots of crosswind, landing with some crab may come into play. One can do a short dance with the upwind maingear, but watch out for gusts at the wrong time.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:28 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by sourdough44 View Post
Yes, at some point, the simple wind down, top rudder wonít be enough.
Maybe it's this term "top rudder" that's leading people astray. If you're wings level, in a crab, when you begin to use rudder to align the fuselage with the runway, there is no "top rudder".
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:29 PM
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Boeing (and MD, before) has been deadset against landing the MD11 in a crab or with any sideload, understandably so. The 747 has had guidance for decades to go ahead and take the crab rather than fight the mass close to the ground or risk striking an outboard nacelle. I forget the number, but the MD11 can take about 12 degrees of bank before a strike with full strut extension, but only five when fully compressed...so it needs to be landed flat.

Just recently Boeing revised their position and came out to say it's better to land crabbed than to cause any instability in the flare or risk getting into an oscillation in the flare. The MD, perhaps more than any other aircraft, is particularly subject to problems in the last 50' of altitude when landing...most of the losses have occurred there, and it has one of the highest loss rates for any transport category aircraft type. Consequently, the landing is a fairly critical time, and of that, the point from 50' to touchdown represents the moment that determines success or crash (everything else is set up for that, and in all the business we practice stable approaches. It's just that on the MD-11, it can be a perfectly stable approach, lost in the last 50').

Sideloading the gear is never preferable, but all things being relative, it's preferable to throwing a wing down, especially on airplanes with pods or nacelles below the wing. It's common to "kick out" the crab and make a transition in the flare, but on the more sensitive types, it can also destabilize the landing, and in some cases, it's preferable not to go there, or visit with great caution.

I realize the discussion is specific to the Challenger, but it's run somewhat afield into a discussion of crosswind technique. Let's not even get into a talk about conventional gear.
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Old 07-07-2023, 06:51 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer View Post
Were it only flown that way! In investigating 12 wingtip scrapes, only two occurred when the winds were close to the demonstrated crosswind component. Several were with less than 10 knots cross component. Seems some just roll in bank mechanically and as long as the nose is straightógood to land. Not so much. And Iíve flown with a couple that fly that way.

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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
I know it all kind of happens together, but Iíve always put in the rudder first. The proper amount of rudder aligns the a/c with the runway. You canít know how much wing to put down in order to kill the drift until you have the correct amount of rudder in.
Yes, I fly the CL-604 like above. This describes it perfectly. And if you need more than @ 6 degrees bank, then I would land crabbed 2 degrees into the wind, and use less bank ( or just go around, and land somewhere else.) I'm just estimating 6', and I don't have a POH reference to back that up.
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Old 07-09-2023, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnBurke View Post
Boeing (and MD, before) has been deadset against landing the MD11 in a crab or with any sideload, understandably so. The 747 has had guidance for decades to go ahead and take the crab rather than fight the mass close to the ground or risk striking an outboard nacelle. I forget the number, but the MD11 can take about 12 degrees of bank before a strike with full strut extension, but only five when fully compressed...so it needs to be landed flat.

Just recently Boeing revised their position and came out to say it's better to land crabbed than to cause any instability in the flare or risk getting into an oscillation in the flare. The MD, perhaps more than any other aircraft, is particularly subject to problems in the last 50' of altitude when landing...most of the losses have occurred there, and it has one of the highest loss rates for any transport category aircraft type. Consequently, the landing is a fairly critical time, and of that, the point from 50' to touchdown represents the moment that determines success or crash (everything else is set up for that, and in all the business we practice stable approaches. It's just that on the MD-11, it can be a perfectly stable approach, lost in the last 50').

Sideloading the gear is never preferable, but all things being relative, it's preferable to throwing a wing down, especially on airplanes with pods or nacelles below the wing. It's common to "kick out" the crab and make a transition in the flare, but on the more sensitive types, it can also destabilize the landing, and in some cases, it's preferable not to go there, or visit with great caution.

I realize the discussion is specific to the Challenger, but it's run somewhat afield into a discussion of crosswind technique. Let's not even get into a talk about conventional gear.
"Kicking out the crab" is just applying rudder to align with the runway. As you do that the upwind wing will rise so you apply aileron to keep wings level or maybe put that wing down a little. It's just a slip in the flare. It's worked for me in the 767 and smaller, even the T-38 which was designed to land in a crab but can be decrabbed the same way.
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Old 07-09-2023, 08:07 AM
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Kicking out the crab is just applying rudder, yes: true of any landing in which one does not wish to land in a bank. The timing is such, however, that it's done close to the runway and just prior to touchdown, so that one doesn't have to lower the wing much, if at all. In some larger considerable-mass airplanes, it can still be done, but it does take more to move the airplane and there is generally a lot more rudder. Boeing, for example, long recommended landing the 747 in a crab, as opposed to making large changes close to the runway. It can still be done, but the potential is increased to end up with a wingtip strike or pod strike, and if the aircraft is stable and on the centerline, it may be preferable to land in a crab.

The 747 has a lot more gear and stouter gear than the taller, spindly gear on the 757 or 767, which shouldn't be landed in a crab, if possible. In general, in most airplanes, it's best to get the long axis pointed in the same direction of travel as the airplane. The 767 may be landed in a crab, per Boeing, but not on a dry runway or in strong crosswinds. Both the dry runway, and the strong crosswind, sideload the gear; the dry runway because of greater friction, and the greater crosswind because of a greater crab angle.

I recently watched a C-17 make an approach using what I thought was a ridiculously large bank angle, all the way down final. Whether it was a demonstration during a training operation or whether it was operational and that's how that pilot landed, I don't know, but it drew comments.

Treat everything like it's got a tailwheel when you land, and you won't have problems. Just don't do a 3-point tailwheel landing in a transport category turobjet airplane. No gold foil star for that.
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