Collins FMS-3000 - always use APPR mode ?
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 459
Hey, guys and gals- New here, but I do have a question on this:
I agree that the proper procedure is the procedure recommended by the manufacturer. However, in a non-precision approach, using Nav/VNAV to the MDA creates a couple other workload issues:
1) You're gonna have the MDA altitude set in the window and will need to start twisting for the MA altitude at the highest workload phase of the flight (though I agree this is not a huge issue if you "just fly the airplane" on the miss and conduct a SNAP checklist).
2) In A/P mode, the plane is gonna level and stall if you don't have your head out of your butt at MDA, in any case.
So, whether you're flying in Appr/VNAV, Nav/VNAV or Nav/Pitch (dive and drive), you're gonna have to know the MDA and when you're approaching it. That done, it just seems to me, there's two alternatives:
NAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP
APPR/VNAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP (with the "A" part already set for you, greater precision on the Approach Profile and a single Manual of Arms from Approach to Approach)
What am I missing here? Input welcome.
I agree that the proper procedure is the procedure recommended by the manufacturer. However, in a non-precision approach, using Nav/VNAV to the MDA creates a couple other workload issues:
1) You're gonna have the MDA altitude set in the window and will need to start twisting for the MA altitude at the highest workload phase of the flight (though I agree this is not a huge issue if you "just fly the airplane" on the miss and conduct a SNAP checklist).
2) In A/P mode, the plane is gonna level and stall if you don't have your head out of your butt at MDA, in any case.
So, whether you're flying in Appr/VNAV, Nav/VNAV or Nav/Pitch (dive and drive), you're gonna have to know the MDA and when you're approaching it. That done, it just seems to me, there's two alternatives:
NAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP
APPR/VNAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP (with the "A" part already set for you, greater precision on the Approach Profile and a single Manual of Arms from Approach to Approach)
What am I missing here? Input welcome.
Level at the MDA, set the missed altitude then hit the GA and start a climb straight ahead to the MAP then SNAP.
#32
Hey, guys and gals- New here, but I do have a question on this:
I agree that the proper procedure is the procedure recommended by the manufacturer. However, in a non-precision approach, using Nav/VNAV to the MDA creates a couple other workload issues:
1) You're gonna have the MDA altitude set in the window and will need to start twisting for the MA altitude at the highest workload phase of the flight (though I agree this is not a huge issue if you "just fly the airplane" on the miss and conduct a SNAP checklist).
2) In A/P mode, the plane is gonna level and stall if you don't have your head out of your butt at MDA, in any case.
So, whether you're flying in Appr/VNAV, Nav/VNAV or Nav/Pitch (dive and drive), you're gonna have to know the MDA and when you're approaching it. That done, it just seems to me, there's two alternatives:
NAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP
APPR/VNAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP (with the "A" part already set for you, greater precision on the Approach Profile and a single Manual of Arms from Approach to Approach)
What am I missing here? Input welcome.
I agree that the proper procedure is the procedure recommended by the manufacturer. However, in a non-precision approach, using Nav/VNAV to the MDA creates a couple other workload issues:
1) You're gonna have the MDA altitude set in the window and will need to start twisting for the MA altitude at the highest workload phase of the flight (though I agree this is not a huge issue if you "just fly the airplane" on the miss and conduct a SNAP checklist).
2) In A/P mode, the plane is gonna level and stall if you don't have your head out of your butt at MDA, in any case.
So, whether you're flying in Appr/VNAV, Nav/VNAV or Nav/Pitch (dive and drive), you're gonna have to know the MDA and when you're approaching it. That done, it just seems to me, there's two alternatives:
NAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP
APPR/VNAV Mode:
Go missed, power up, clean up, SNAP (with the "A" part already set for you, greater precision on the Approach Profile and a single Manual of Arms from Approach to Approach)
What am I missing here? Input welcome.
#33
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 3
greater precision on the Approach Profile
Does it?
Can you provide a reference for it?
Can you provide a reference for it?
how do you think that technique is going to work while on the final approach segment, a stiff tail wind, and then the need to start maneuvering for the landing runway? (circle approach)
My only point here is that a consistent sequence, across approach types, seems to me to be a desirable thing. Whether it's an ILS or a GPS you are required to reconfigure at DA/MDA. If you don't on an ILS, you're going to auger in; if you don't on a GPS or VOR, you're going to stall...and auger in.
So, knowing that you MUST take action at (or approaching MDA), why not fly the (more stabilized) VNAV toward the MDA, initiating the GA decision when applicable? Just like an ILS. Same procedures. Same sequence.
I realize we're talking King Air's here and I'm interloping with discussion of the P180. But I can tell you, the P180 does NOT provide very much forward visibility in the "Drive" portion of a Dive and Drive approach. Here's a great article on why that type of sequence is no longer in favor: From Non-Precision to Precision-Like Approaches
I don't find it curious that Beech might have a different manual of arms on this issue than does Piaggio. Perhaps the P180 is not as well suited to a Dive and Drive approach configuration. Perhaps it simply demonstrates that the experts differ in opinion also. That would mean nobody is wrong. ;-)
#34
According to Flight Safety, it does for a VOR or GPS approach. You can check with them. I just did.
I submit the exact same sequence might be used; only difference is the MDA/DA will be at the published Circle to Land altitude, which is designed to allow for maneuver to the Landing Runway. VNAV will get you there; Dive and Drive requires you to assure you'll arrive in time to Drive.
My only point here is that a consistent sequence, across approach types, seems to me to be a desirable thing. Whether it's an ILS or a GPS you are required to reconfigure at DA/MDA. If you don't on an ILS, you're going to auger in; if you don't on a GPS or VOR, you're going to stall...and auger in.
So, knowing that you MUST take action at (or approaching MDA), why not fly the (more stabilized) VNAV toward the MDA, initiating the GA decision when applicable? Just like an ILS. Same procedures. Same sequence.
I realize we're talking King Air's here and I'm interloping with discussion of the P180. But I can tell you, the P180 does NOT provide very much forward visibility in the "Drive" portion of a Dive and Drive approach. Here's a great article on why that type of sequence is no longer in favor: From Non-Precision to Precision-Like Approaches
I don't find it curious that Beech might have a different manual of arms on this issue than does Piaggio. Perhaps the P180 is not as well suited to a Dive and Drive approach configuration. Perhaps it simply demonstrates that the experts differ in opinion also. That would mean nobody is wrong. ;-)
I submit the exact same sequence might be used; only difference is the MDA/DA will be at the published Circle to Land altitude, which is designed to allow for maneuver to the Landing Runway. VNAV will get you there; Dive and Drive requires you to assure you'll arrive in time to Drive.
My only point here is that a consistent sequence, across approach types, seems to me to be a desirable thing. Whether it's an ILS or a GPS you are required to reconfigure at DA/MDA. If you don't on an ILS, you're going to auger in; if you don't on a GPS or VOR, you're going to stall...and auger in.
So, knowing that you MUST take action at (or approaching MDA), why not fly the (more stabilized) VNAV toward the MDA, initiating the GA decision when applicable? Just like an ILS. Same procedures. Same sequence.
I realize we're talking King Air's here and I'm interloping with discussion of the P180. But I can tell you, the P180 does NOT provide very much forward visibility in the "Drive" portion of a Dive and Drive approach. Here's a great article on why that type of sequence is no longer in favor: From Non-Precision to Precision-Like Approaches
I don't find it curious that Beech might have a different manual of arms on this issue than does Piaggio. Perhaps the P180 is not as well suited to a Dive and Drive approach configuration. Perhaps it simply demonstrates that the experts differ in opinion also. That would mean nobody is wrong. ;-)
The airports that I frequent for evals/training all have at least one RNAV (GPS) approaches. I can fly most of these approaches blindfolded. I experiment with the LNAV MDA, LP minima. Pretty much 100% of the time I can acquire the runway environment sooner and be in a better position to land using NAV and VS (1000 fpm max) versus NAV/VNAV. I prefer that my new guys I teach/evaluate use the full automation (VNAV). Guys, that I give PIC rides to will have at least one approach limited to VS. I really throw them for a loop when I dim the FMS brightness full down and tell them to execute me an ILS raw data ;-)
Last edited by Gundriver64; 08-09-2019 at 05:30 AM.
#35
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2019
Posts: 3
Then there is the question is MDA MINIMUM descent altitude or is that just an advisory thing only?
Would you stake a type ride on selecting APPR to the MDA?