Denny Crane

A 767 is hard to get a real greaser in simply because the main gear trucks are tilted forward. Boeing had to design them this way so they would fit in the wheel well properly when retracted. That being said, here is what I do.

I'm very mechanical up to a point. At 30-35' I start the flare without moving my power from what it was coming down final. Once I break the sink rate I start easing off on the throttles (a little faster in ER's and a little slower in domestic -300's). For you young bucks who don't care about getting callout below 10', it's the way it was taught many moons ago. I became used to it and, for me, it really helps. Any way you can get a smoother landing is not cheating, it's using CRM and all the tools available to you! Once you've broken the sinkrate and hear "4,""2" relax back pressure on the yoke to maaaaybe a slight forward pressure (not enough to bring the nose down).

You may not grease it everytime but you won't drag a tail and it works pretty good. Of course all this is dependent on you having enough runway to play with it a little!!

Good Luck!

Denny

Bucking Bar

For some reason my very first landing in the 767 was a greaser and that trend held until my last. The winglet equipped airplanes seem to land a bit better and obviously have a tad bit more lift. Just have to pay attention to differences in EEC's and engines to know when to pull the power.

I loved the 767-300ER with winglets at domestic weights. Real sweetheart of an airplane. Wasn't at all like "work."

I still have to drive myself through the last 30 feet on the narrow body jets. For some reason the 767 sight picture sticks in my brain more than anything else I've flown.

Timbo

I HATE the auto spoilers on that thing, it will rob you of a grease job. When I was an F/O on it, (1989-1996) we were not 'required' to use the auto speed brakes OR the auto brakes, so we didn't use either one, unless it was a no-sh!t cat 3 auto land...(about once per year). As long as you didn't pull the power off until touchdown, I found it very easy to land well. But, the common tip was, "Thrust Idle, Flight's over!" ie. don't pull the thrust to idle until the wheels are on the ground...or it will drop out on you, if you are on speed of course.

Later, when I flew Capt. on it, the training Dept. wanted us to use both the auto spoilers and auto brakes for EVERY landing...so...we did...but what I would do is, if I saw the F/O was going to grease it, I would hold the speedbrake lever foreward on landing, and let it come back very slowly, as not to spoil his landing, then I would reach over and turn off the autobrakes, and -oh yeah-

Lighten up on the damn thrust reverse and brakes! Wouldja??!!

Why do some guys think they have to make every landing, even on 12,000' of dry pavement, as if they are trying to make the first turnoff on a wet 6000' runway??

Jeeezzus. cut it out already. Yesterday in MCO I was riding in the back of one of our 737's and this guy stopped it like we were in National in a snow storm...and made the first turn off, after scaring the crap out of everyone in the back and hanging us all in our seatbelts. He made the first turn into our ramp..then we waited 20 minutes for our gate to come open so we could park.

Situational awareness helps when it comes to nice landings, no reason to max reverse and max brakes when you have 10,000' of dry pavement ahead of you. We still get paid by the minute (except the SW guys of course) so I'm all for rolling to the far end,(trafic permitting) idle reverse, make the last turn off, slowly taxi back...and then you only have to wait 10 minutes for your gate.

Last month my F/O got a $50dh tip from a cute girl, for his smooth landing in Dubai! On approach I told him, "Look this is a 14,500' runway, and our gate is at the far end. I'm going to hold the boards down and turn off the autobrakes as soon as we touch down, you just let it roll to the end, idle reverse, oh, and don't fk this up, we're all counting on you Striker!"

He did a great job, I could hardly feel it touch down, it was a beautiful thing, and we very peacefully, quietly, rolled to the far high speed, nice and smooth, no hard turns and no stops, and right up to the gate.

Nearly every pax who got off made a "Nice Landing!" comment, as it should be, but I've seen lots of guys land in Dubai and slam on the brakes, max the reverse...and then have to add power to make the first high speed!

Skyone

Simple....don't get fast on a 757, don't get slow on any 767. Trying to get your greaser is never worth a tail strike or landing out of the touchdown zone. Have known both happening over the years.

And talking about idle reverse.....drift to failure. My airline prefers idle reverse when able. Problem is, that has become the norm and many are delaying even "cracking" the reversers. This can become a little dicey on some shorter rwys. Idle reverse may be appropriate in certain circumstances, i.e., roll to the end, but only when briefed as the exception, not the rule. My 5 cents.

Timbo

When I got on the 757 (-200) coming from the 727, and KC 135, I used to joke that I was going to applly for my Glider Rating since I had so much time at Idle in the 757. (P+W motors).

That thing is a real kite if you are a little fast! I asked a Boeing engineer about that once when he was at our Drill Weekend talking about the KC 135. He told me they had to bump up the approach speeds on the 757 to give it enough rudder authority in the event of an engine failure/go around scenario. He said you could fly the 757 at bug minus 10 and you'd still have plenty of margin above stall...but not enough rudder if you had to go around and lost an engine at the same time. (at flaps 30 ref speed)

Add to that, the P+W engines were having some roll back issues, so they decided to bump up flight idle to a higher RPM, so you have a lot of residual thrust at idle on approach.

Again, situational awarness is the key. Some guys are of the opinion that every landing should be done "the same", ie. as if on a short runway. They claim they will remove all the variables...for safety...we will treat every landing as if it's a 6,000 foot, wet runway. That way, they never have to think too hard when it is...once a year.

I'm of the opposite oppinion, I like to look at the big picture and see exactly what is going on, winds, weather, trafic, exits, gate location, etc, so I brief runway length, condition and my expected exit point as part of my approach brief.

If it's a 10,000' runway, I'll treat it differently than I do a 8,000' runway, unless I know there is a line of airplanes coming in right behind me, in that case I will try to get off as quickly as possible, but not max brakes and reverse, unless there's a very good reason, like...um...a kitten crossing the runway.

KC10 FATboy

Using reverse thrust does you no good on a 757 767 unless you are using maximum ABS. The ABS uses a rate of deceleration which means the brakes will release braking power to keep that same rate once reverse thrust is used.

UP Pilot

I've never understood why some guys can land like Bob Hoover but then taxi in like Dale Earnhardt.

The ride doesn't end when the mains touch down.

Timbo

Exactly, and back in the day, when we 727 flight engineers had to 'go through the charts' to figure landing distance, etc. we were shown how little difference there is in landing distance; reverse, vs. no reverse.

There were many times we were dispatched with a 'reverser inop' on the 757/76, and so didn't use much on the good one, of course. It really doesn't make much difference in landing roll, a few hundred feet, but it sure makes a lot of noise and I'm guessing it kicks up a lot of crap off the runway into the intakes. Idle reverse is plenty, unless you are really going into a tight spot, and then, well, you may want to consider going somewhere else.

We flew KC135's for years without reverse thrust into snowy runways up north, Loring, Bangor, Pease, etc. (big, long, wide, SAC runways, yes) BUT...they were the smaller 'pure jet' engines. When they put the big fans on the 135's, they should have added the reversers too, as there is a lot more residual thrust coming off any big fan engine at idle, than any little pure jet. Idle reverse will help cut that down...if you have them installed!

cougar

This isn't a correct statement. Approach and stall speed is weight dependent. However, Vmca is not. The Vmca charts in the 757 AFM are only dependent upon temperature and pressure altitude. Which means that Vmca is really based on the amount of thrust produced. GA thrust is the same regardless of weight, so as long as the aircraft speed is above Vmca, there will be sufficient rudder authority. For our 757's, the Vmca is 104 or 107 kts(depending on RR or PW engines) at 80 F and sea level, which is near the max Vmca speed on the AFM chart. The Vref speed for the lowest weight published, 140000 lbs, is 109 knots(the minimum Vref speed). For any weight the approach speed exceeds Vmca, therefore a bump to the approach speed wouldn't be required, at least for rudder authority.

cougar

It is correct that the auto brake settings correspond to set deceleration rates[Max auto 11ft/s/s, ABS 4 - 8.5 ft/s/s, ABS 3 - 6.3 ft/s/s, ABS 2 - 5.0 ft/s/s, ABS 1 - 4.5 ft/s/s]. However, all five auto brake positions are actually more effective with thrust reverse. Referencing the normal landing distance table for a dry runway, the penalty for no reverse increases from 260 feet for max auto to 900 feet for auto brakes 1(not linear). If "using reverse thrust does you no good" then there wouldn't be a penalty for not having reverse.

For example, the penalty for ABS 2 with no reverse on a dry runway is 450 feet. This means at initial touchdown where reverse thrust is most effective, the auto brake deceleration rate is actually exceeded by the deceleration rate of reverse thrust. For a short period of time the ABS may not be applying an braking at all. As the thrust reverse becomes less effective the ABS pressure increases to maintain the 5 ft/s/s decel rate.

As the FCTM states;

"Immediate initiation of reverse thrust at main gear touchdown and full reverse thrust allow the autobrake system to reduce brake pressure to the minimum level.

Since the autobrake system senses deceleration and modulates brake pressure accordingly, the proper application of reverse thrust results in reduced braking for a large portion of the landing roll.

The importance of establishing the desired reverse thrust level as soon as possible after touchdown cannot be overemphasized. This minimizes brake temperatures and tire and brake wear and reduces stopping distance on very slippery runways"

This is all operator determined; engine wear, passenger comfort, fuel savings and runway length are all considerations as well.