Landing the 767
11-15-2012, 07:49 PM
#31
Tuk er jerbs!
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: B747 Left
Posts: 1,342
Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer
For my two cents worth (devalued to $.0087318 on today's market close), there was quite a difference in how one approached landing these three different aircraft and they are three different aircraft aerodynamically. To me, the 757 was always kind of a "crap shoot" in that it seemed to have stiffer gear. The 767-200 and -300 were also different but not as noticeable. I found the -200 the easiest of the three to land.
As a technique, the angle of attack and rate of descent was maintained to approximately the 50 ft call when the rate of decent was checked (NO flare....sorry but I hate that word when talking about swept wing aircraft because they aren't "flared" in a traditional sense). Once the rate of descent has been checked, I always shifted my eyes to the far end of the runway as this was the best way to detect any lateral movement. You want to land all three aircraft straight ahead without any sidewards drift ! From then it's just wait until the grease gun works. The variable is obviously wind, weight, etc as to when the rate of decent is checked and to what degree.I found that this technique works very well on both the -200 and -300.
Great aircraft all and enjoy flying them.
G'Day
As a technique, the angle of attack and rate of descent was maintained to approximately the 50 ft call when the rate of decent was checked (NO flare....sorry but I hate that word when talking about swept wing aircraft because they aren't "flared" in a traditional sense). Once the rate of descent has been checked, I always shifted my eyes to the far end of the runway as this was the best way to detect any lateral movement. You want to land all three aircraft straight ahead without any sidewards drift ! From then it's just wait until the grease gun works. The variable is obviously wind, weight, etc as to when the rate of decent is checked and to what degree.I found that this technique works very well on both the -200 and -300.
Great aircraft all and enjoy flying them.
G'Day
Timbo: You're right on about the autospoilers... I got robbed going into ATL a couple weeks ago. Felt the mains just barely touch (but not quite settle), sliiiiight forward pressure to sit it down smoothly, WHAM, autospoilers. Get ya every time.
12-08-2012, 05:20 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: B756 captain
Posts: 102
In the 757-200&300, as well as the B767-200&400, the technique is the same.
I start the flare at 30', and when I get the 10' call, and I am happy that the bottom is not falling out, I close the thrust levers, and take what I get. It does absolutely no good to milk a wonderful touchdown, then have to go to max brakes and full reverse to get stopped.
IMHO we spend too much time worrying about our landings, when they are some of the least important things that we do.
I start the flare at 30', and when I get the 10' call, and I am happy that the bottom is not falling out, I close the thrust levers, and take what I get. It does absolutely no good to milk a wonderful touchdown, then have to go to max brakes and full reverse to get stopped.
IMHO we spend too much time worrying about our landings, when they are some of the least important things that we do.
05-06-2013, 12:09 PM
#33
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Position: Retired (6-drawer Oak Desk)
Posts: 38
How to Land - Not Necessarily a "Grease Job"
I know just how much everyone on this forum likes to have someone come along and “tell them” how it’s to be done. So, for those of you here who are older than ½ of my age – stop reading and go on down to the next post. OK, maybe you don’t know my age, but I was around when dirt was invented – that should give you an approximation.
But, for you folks who are less than ½ of my age, listen up – this may be important to you, and, after a little practice, you just may be able to teach those guys who have now stopped reading how to really land an airplane. This procedure is applicable to every airplane from a C-152 to a B-747 (I haven’t flown a B-52 or the A-380, but I’ll bet it works there, too) – it also works in calm conditions, head winds, tail winds, cross winds, CAVU conditions, snow, ice, rain, simple IMC conditions, and even FLIR-aided IMC conditions.
As almost all of the folks above have indicated – the last portion of the final approach should be flown in the configuration in which you plan to land, and flown at a constant speed of 1.3 Vs (computed in that configuration), plus ½ of the steady state wind (not to exceed an additive of 20 knots) plus all of the gust factor. I personally believe that this steady-state condition should be established at 1000 feet AGL, but I know that some operations allow this altitude to be lower – but in the passenger revenue world I’m not aware of any that are below 500 feet AGL.
You should cross the runway threshold at what ever is the minimum threshold crossing height – for most transport category airplanes this should be about 50 feet. And at that point you should have been able to bleed off the airspeed additives you’ve been holding for steady-state wind (only the steady-state wind additives) – you’ll still have the 1.3 Vs plus all the gust factor. This will require you to continue to fly the airplane to the runway. Some operators recommend that you begin to reduce power at this point – if that is the procedure you’ve been taught, fine – but keep the airspeed constant until you begin the flare (that may mean pushing the nose over a bit – hopefully it will only require nose down pressure and not nose down movement. The point to which you should be flying at this point (the “aim” point – that point that doesn’t move up or down in the windscreen) is a point on the runway surface about 2/3 of the way between the threshold and the fixed distance markers (for the C-150 guys, this aim point should be the numbers themselves and for the B-747 guys, the aim point should be the fixed distance markers or just beyond).
OK, now for the flare. The question that always comes up is, “what attitude do I flare to?” When you start to flare is critical. You will want to reach your flare attitude with the main wheels something between 1 and 5 feet from the runway surface (1 foot or so for the C-152 guys and 5 feet for the B-747 guys … yes, I know how difficult it is to imagine the mains at 5 feet above the runway from the B-747 cockpit – but remember, you’re good at your job! – Make it 5 feet!) The change in the attitude from when you initiate the flare to reaching the flare attitude should take just about 3 seconds (no less than 2 for you C-150 guys and no more than 4 for you B-747 guys) and you should wind up with the main wheels “just off the runway surface. The speed you should have when you reach the flare attitude should be just below (between 5 and 15 knots below) what you carried from the threshold to this point – the smaller number for the smaller airplanes and the larger number for the larger airplanes. The attitude you achieve should be just exactly what it would take to maintain level flight from this point all the way down the runway if you were to maintain the airspeed you had at the conclusion of the flare. What I’d have you practice would be, “flare to the level flight attitude ... reaching the point above the runway we've described ... do not climb ... do not descend ... do not accelerate ... do not decelerate ... and we’ll go around at the end of the runway.” I’d also have you mentally locate the position on the belly of the airplane exactly between the main gear (the body gear for you B-747 guys) and I’d tell you to fly down the runway (no climb, no descent, no faster, no slower) with that point on the belly of the airplane exactly over the runway centerline – and to do that with whatever crab angle you need to do it. Of course you’d have to add a bit of power – and if you were to actually practice maintaining this "level flight attitude, this is what you would have to do...
I’d have you do this exercise as many times as was necessary to get you comfortable with when to initiate the flare, how quickly to flare, and to what attitude you need to stop the flare with the main gear just off the runway surface. The key here is - let me say that again - THE KEY here is - getting you to recognize when to start the flare and how quickly to flare, is to get you to recognize what attitude to reach at the end of the flare – and THAT attitude is the LEVEL FLIGHT ATTITUDE - this is what you want to achieve.
Once you’ve got it, as you begin the flare you begin the throttle reduction (and despite what you think ... you CAN do these two things at once!). The idea is to get the throttles to the idle position as the mains touch the runway. This will happen because, as you pull the throttles back, you will notice the nose getting heavier – BUT don’t let it move down. Increase the back pressure on the elevator controls to maintain that attitude – but DO NOT move the nose up – just keep it from moving down. Over that 3 seconds, as the airspeed continues to decelerate, the airplane will continue to descend, in that level flight attitude, going from just above the runway to ON the runway. Level Flight Attitude is the attitude from which you want to land the airplane. Your touchdown should be slightly firm - but not hard, the kinetic energy of the airplane should be moving in the right direction, the nose should be able to be flown to the runway rather quickly as it is not unnecessarily high to arrest a high sink rate. You should be over the center of the runway, with the controls already properly positioned for the landing run.
If you had been carrying a crab angle to counter a crosswind, the crab should be removed in exactly the same time as the flare takes – 3 seconds. The pressure applied to the rudder pedal to pressure the nose around to line up with the centerline of the runway (do NOT think "kick the nose around to line up" - there should be no "kicking" in the airplane - only "pressuring!") should start with the back pressure on the control column to flare. As you probably know, this may take some “into-the-wind” aileron to counter the tendency of the forward sweeping wing to rise … but, unless the wind is quite strong, you won’t be in the air long enough to have the wind blow you downwind off the centerline. Of course, if the wind IS quite strong, you may have to add a bit more aileron to slightly (very slightly) dip the wing tip in the up-wind direction.
I offer just one caveat. If you discuss this with your chief pilot, fleet captain, or the captain on your flight, and they absolutely forbid you to fly and land this way – pay attention to your company and forget what I’ve said. This is not an attempt to thwart the way your company procedures require you to operate. If this is different from the way you normally approach and land, I do not recommend that you do it without everyone in the cockpit knowing what you are going to do, no matter what position you are flying – if you can swing it, I’d recommend practicing it in the simulator with someone who knows what they are doing. I think you’ll be surprised at how easy this becomes, and how consistent your landings will become as well – night, day, rain, snow, clear, no matter. Consistent landings are good things to cultivate. Also, if you try this and just simply think it is the epitome of wrong-headedness, let me know and I’ll buy you a beer. However, if you think it is the correct way to land, let me know and I’ll buy you two!
Oh ... the "grease job?" I'd recommend forgetting it. Sometimes you get one - most of the time you don't. If you continually TRY to get one - you will compromise the proper way to land your airplane ... remember ... you're a professional ... don't ever forget it ... don't ever compromise it ... land the airplane professionally everytime ... you won't regret it.
But, for you folks who are less than ½ of my age, listen up – this may be important to you, and, after a little practice, you just may be able to teach those guys who have now stopped reading how to really land an airplane. This procedure is applicable to every airplane from a C-152 to a B-747 (I haven’t flown a B-52 or the A-380, but I’ll bet it works there, too) – it also works in calm conditions, head winds, tail winds, cross winds, CAVU conditions, snow, ice, rain, simple IMC conditions, and even FLIR-aided IMC conditions.
As almost all of the folks above have indicated – the last portion of the final approach should be flown in the configuration in which you plan to land, and flown at a constant speed of 1.3 Vs (computed in that configuration), plus ½ of the steady state wind (not to exceed an additive of 20 knots) plus all of the gust factor. I personally believe that this steady-state condition should be established at 1000 feet AGL, but I know that some operations allow this altitude to be lower – but in the passenger revenue world I’m not aware of any that are below 500 feet AGL.
You should cross the runway threshold at what ever is the minimum threshold crossing height – for most transport category airplanes this should be about 50 feet. And at that point you should have been able to bleed off the airspeed additives you’ve been holding for steady-state wind (only the steady-state wind additives) – you’ll still have the 1.3 Vs plus all the gust factor. This will require you to continue to fly the airplane to the runway. Some operators recommend that you begin to reduce power at this point – if that is the procedure you’ve been taught, fine – but keep the airspeed constant until you begin the flare (that may mean pushing the nose over a bit – hopefully it will only require nose down pressure and not nose down movement. The point to which you should be flying at this point (the “aim” point – that point that doesn’t move up or down in the windscreen) is a point on the runway surface about 2/3 of the way between the threshold and the fixed distance markers (for the C-150 guys, this aim point should be the numbers themselves and for the B-747 guys, the aim point should be the fixed distance markers or just beyond).
OK, now for the flare. The question that always comes up is, “what attitude do I flare to?” When you start to flare is critical. You will want to reach your flare attitude with the main wheels something between 1 and 5 feet from the runway surface (1 foot or so for the C-152 guys and 5 feet for the B-747 guys … yes, I know how difficult it is to imagine the mains at 5 feet above the runway from the B-747 cockpit – but remember, you’re good at your job! – Make it 5 feet!) The change in the attitude from when you initiate the flare to reaching the flare attitude should take just about 3 seconds (no less than 2 for you C-150 guys and no more than 4 for you B-747 guys) and you should wind up with the main wheels “just off the runway surface. The speed you should have when you reach the flare attitude should be just below (between 5 and 15 knots below) what you carried from the threshold to this point – the smaller number for the smaller airplanes and the larger number for the larger airplanes. The attitude you achieve should be just exactly what it would take to maintain level flight from this point all the way down the runway if you were to maintain the airspeed you had at the conclusion of the flare. What I’d have you practice would be, “flare to the level flight attitude ... reaching the point above the runway we've described ... do not climb ... do not descend ... do not accelerate ... do not decelerate ... and we’ll go around at the end of the runway.” I’d also have you mentally locate the position on the belly of the airplane exactly between the main gear (the body gear for you B-747 guys) and I’d tell you to fly down the runway (no climb, no descent, no faster, no slower) with that point on the belly of the airplane exactly over the runway centerline – and to do that with whatever crab angle you need to do it. Of course you’d have to add a bit of power – and if you were to actually practice maintaining this "level flight attitude, this is what you would have to do...
I’d have you do this exercise as many times as was necessary to get you comfortable with when to initiate the flare, how quickly to flare, and to what attitude you need to stop the flare with the main gear just off the runway surface. The key here is - let me say that again - THE KEY here is - getting you to recognize when to start the flare and how quickly to flare, is to get you to recognize what attitude to reach at the end of the flare – and THAT attitude is the LEVEL FLIGHT ATTITUDE - this is what you want to achieve.
Once you’ve got it, as you begin the flare you begin the throttle reduction (and despite what you think ... you CAN do these two things at once!). The idea is to get the throttles to the idle position as the mains touch the runway. This will happen because, as you pull the throttles back, you will notice the nose getting heavier – BUT don’t let it move down. Increase the back pressure on the elevator controls to maintain that attitude – but DO NOT move the nose up – just keep it from moving down. Over that 3 seconds, as the airspeed continues to decelerate, the airplane will continue to descend, in that level flight attitude, going from just above the runway to ON the runway. Level Flight Attitude is the attitude from which you want to land the airplane. Your touchdown should be slightly firm - but not hard, the kinetic energy of the airplane should be moving in the right direction, the nose should be able to be flown to the runway rather quickly as it is not unnecessarily high to arrest a high sink rate. You should be over the center of the runway, with the controls already properly positioned for the landing run.
If you had been carrying a crab angle to counter a crosswind, the crab should be removed in exactly the same time as the flare takes – 3 seconds. The pressure applied to the rudder pedal to pressure the nose around to line up with the centerline of the runway (do NOT think "kick the nose around to line up" - there should be no "kicking" in the airplane - only "pressuring!") should start with the back pressure on the control column to flare. As you probably know, this may take some “into-the-wind” aileron to counter the tendency of the forward sweeping wing to rise … but, unless the wind is quite strong, you won’t be in the air long enough to have the wind blow you downwind off the centerline. Of course, if the wind IS quite strong, you may have to add a bit more aileron to slightly (very slightly) dip the wing tip in the up-wind direction.
I offer just one caveat. If you discuss this with your chief pilot, fleet captain, or the captain on your flight, and they absolutely forbid you to fly and land this way – pay attention to your company and forget what I’ve said. This is not an attempt to thwart the way your company procedures require you to operate. If this is different from the way you normally approach and land, I do not recommend that you do it without everyone in the cockpit knowing what you are going to do, no matter what position you are flying – if you can swing it, I’d recommend practicing it in the simulator with someone who knows what they are doing. I think you’ll be surprised at how easy this becomes, and how consistent your landings will become as well – night, day, rain, snow, clear, no matter. Consistent landings are good things to cultivate. Also, if you try this and just simply think it is the epitome of wrong-headedness, let me know and I’ll buy you a beer. However, if you think it is the correct way to land, let me know and I’ll buy you two!
Oh ... the "grease job?" I'd recommend forgetting it. Sometimes you get one - most of the time you don't. If you continually TRY to get one - you will compromise the proper way to land your airplane ... remember ... you're a professional ... don't ever forget it ... don't ever compromise it ... land the airplane professionally everytime ... you won't regret it.
05-21-2013, 05:45 AM
#35
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Position: Retired (6-drawer Oak Desk)
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by cougar
757-200, 767-200 were certified using Vref min = 1.3Vs far.
767-300/ER/400 and 757-300 were certified using Vref min = 1.23Vs 1-g.
767-300/ER/400 and 757-300 were certified using Vref min = 1.23Vs 1-g.
Originally Posted by AirRabbit
I offer just one caveat. If you discuss this with your chief pilot, fleet captain, or the captain on your flight, and they absolutely forbid you to fly and land this way – pay attention to your company and forget what I’ve said. This is not an attempt to thwart the way your company procedures require you to operate. If this is different from the way you normally approach and land, I do not recommend that you do it without everyone in the cockpit knowing what you are going to do, no matter what position you are flying
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