Latest time for approach clearance.
10-21-2012, 03:12 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
Latest time for approach clearance.
What is the latest time a pilot can get an approach clearance for a full pilot nav approach. Say a GPS T on published routes the entire time from an airway. The clearance limit is the airport.
Is it before the IAF or FAF?
Thanks
Is it before the IAF or FAF?
Thanks
10-21-2012, 06:47 PM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
Just to clarify. Several times I have been told to report inbound on a PT approach after the IAF after which I have been cleared approach. So is is there a cut and dry point like a vectored approach where you may not (in the interest of safety of course) turn inbound and track and descend as published until cleared for such approach? I have even had a few instances where they did not (forgot?) to clear me on a full PN approach and just handed me to tower or CTAF.
10-22-2012, 06:25 AM
#3
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,322
They should give you additional clearance before you reach your clearance limit. Period.
There's no grey area about continuing to an IAF or FAF. If you reach your CL and don't have further clearance you are supposed to hold, inbound leg, right turns.
There may places where they play a little loose with that, but I wouldn't play that game in an airliner.
There's no grey area about continuing to an IAF or FAF. If you reach your CL and don't have further clearance you are supposed to hold, inbound leg, right turns.
There may places where they play a little loose with that, but I wouldn't play that game in an airliner.
10-22-2012, 01:42 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
I wrote in my post that the clearance limit was the airport. It is cut and dry if the clearance limit is IAF for example, then one would have to hold until further clearance. Lets take 2 cases:
1. VTF approach. Pilot mus get approach clearance to turn inbound and track as well as descend as published.
2. Pilot Nav approach. When is the cut and dry point here if the clearance limit is the airport? I do not think their is one. At least I have not found it in the AIM yet.
1. VTF approach. Pilot mus get approach clearance to turn inbound and track as well as descend as published.
2. Pilot Nav approach. When is the cut and dry point here if the clearance limit is the airport? I do not think their is one. At least I have not found it in the AIM yet.
10-22-2012, 03:06 PM
#5
Respek
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,603
Copied from another forum....
The book answer is that you cannot clear an aircraft direct to the FAF and clear them for the approach. You can give a vector to intercept the final approach course at the FAF with no more than a 20 degree intercept angle, and it's at the pilot's request only.
GPS approaches are the exception; if you're vectoring onto final, you still have to vector to intercept 1 mile from the approach gate.
The book answer is that you cannot clear an aircraft direct to the FAF and clear them for the approach. You can give a vector to intercept the final approach course at the FAF with no more than a 20 degree intercept angle, and it's at the pilot's request only.
GPS approaches are the exception; if you're vectoring onto final, you still have to vector to intercept 1 mile from the approach gate.
10-22-2012, 03:08 PM
#6
Respek
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,603
If it's VFR sounds good to go.... otherwise if you are planning on vectoring to the instrument approach then eventually you will need to vector for a proper intercept, unless as stated in 5-9-1 the pilot request otherwise.
I take no credit for this being right or wrong.
I take no credit for this being right or wrong.
10-22-2012, 05:22 PM
#7
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 5
It was my understanding that you should have your clearance before you start navigating on your own on a published part of the approach. In other words, if you are on vectors, you should have a clearance before you descend on the final approach course. If you are shooting the full approach, it would be before the IAF. I could be wrong on this. I don't have nearly as much experience in the system as most of the guys around here. I do recall times when I have been cleared for the approach and then told to report the FAF inbound. Personally, if I didn't have a clearance, I would query ATC before descending.
10-22-2012, 06:34 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
So the way I see it you need it in order to descend in this situation. But you can contunie to fly your route including the legs on the approach as your clearance limit was the airport and your clearance included the IAF.
Maybe I am creating a mountain out of a molehill. I tend to do that sometimes.
Maybe I am creating a mountain out of a molehill. I tend to do that sometimes.
10-23-2012, 06:27 AM
#9
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,322
Originally Posted by jakemichels11
Personally, if I didn't have a clearance, I would query ATC before descending.
Personally, that would be a very, very good idea.
Even if the controller is lazy and is OK with you doing whatever, if something goes wrong (controller screw up) he could then, if he was unethical, blame you to save his own skin.
I think you are over-thinking this. You can't go anywhere or do anything under IFR without a clearance, unless of course it's an emergency.
It's very rare for a controller to allow you to reach a clearance limit without follow-on instructions, even if it's hold with an EFC. They don't want to leave you guessing. Sometimes they forget, in which case just ask them before you reach the limit.
10-23-2012, 01:21 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Lunar Lander Commander
Posts: 158
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Personally, that would be a very, very good idea.
Even if the controller is lazy and is OK with you doing whatever, if something goes wrong (controller screw up) he could then, if he was unethical, blame you to save his own skin.
I think you are over-thinking this. You can't go anywhere or do anything under IFR without a clearance, unless of course it's an emergency.
It's very rare for a controller to allow you to reach a clearance limit without follow-on instructions, even if it's hold with an EFC. They don't want to leave you guessing. Sometimes they forget, in which case just ask them before you reach the limit.
Even if the controller is lazy and is OK with you doing whatever, if something goes wrong (controller screw up) he could then, if he was unethical, blame you to save his own skin.
I think you are over-thinking this. You can't go anywhere or do anything under IFR without a clearance, unless of course it's an emergency.
It's very rare for a controller to allow you to reach a clearance limit without follow-on instructions, even if it's hold with an EFC. They don't want to leave you guessing. Sometimes they forget, in which case just ask them before you reach the limit.
It is a little bit of an over think excursion which I have been known to do from time to time.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
