More dissatisfied ALPA customers?
10-04-2007, 06:48 PM
#31
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Originally Posted by Jettubby
Without ALPA the company would have most likely merged the pilot list like all other workers the only true fair way in our business; Date of Hire.
10-04-2007, 08:04 PM
#32
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 81
And try telling a 1988 USAir hire pilot that was NEVER furloughed that he's junior to a 2004 AW new hire. How would you like that? Speak of what you know about because you have no idea pal.
Once and if the seniority list is implemented EVERY AW pilot will become a Captain while East pilots hired in 1988 will still be F/Os. The West pilots will capitalize on the East's attrition. Over 300 retirements a year. The West goes from a regional airline to a Legacy carrier overnight suddenly inheriting things they never had such as international flying and USAir's domination of the North East. Let's not forget for several straight quarters the west division has been losing millions while the east has been making hundreds of millions all the while the east being paid less for the same airplanes, pay more for less medical benefits, and make profits to subsidize the west's profit sharing. Remember if you "lose" money you don't get profit sharing boys and girls. Funny how the west is losing money but earning profit sharing on the east's profits! Oh and who's name is on the airplanes? I wonder why? Do you think a NY businessman who rides the shuttle from NY to DC 5 times a week is going to buy a ticket on "America West" who? An American buddy told me that New Yorkers keep asking him if America West is the western division of American Airlines. Go figure.
AW did not bail out or buy USAir It was a "merger". Look up the definition if you don't know what it is. They saved each other and that is quoted by Mr. Doug Parker. Arbitration is not a contest. It's supposed to be a win win and give and take for both sides. What did the west give? 500 senior guys at USAir that are flying international get to stay there. Did you know that every one of them retires in less than two years and 200 have already retired! If this was not a windfall for AW then I'd like to know what is. Please tell me. And we have ALPA merger policy to thank for that one. A merger policy that allows ONE man (arbitrator) to make a decision affecting thousands of employees. Oh yea and the two pilots from other airlines that were helping the arbitrator wrote publically saying that the arbitrator was basically off his rocker and that they completely disagreed with his decision. Ah but ALPA merger policy states that those pilots have no official say.
So the young, dumb, and uninformed say, "Well you agreed to arbitration so you get what you get". Sure we also agree to judges but if the judge puts you in jail for 30 years for shoplifting then I think you may have something to say besides, "Oh well that was the judge's decision so I must agree. Duh". Those of you in ALPA beware. All we have in this business is seniority and that's based on your date of hire. That's what the rule was when we all started this game. ALPA and ALPA only in the 1980's messed with the sacred idea of seniority. Starting with the TWA/Ozark merger ALPA changed their stance, "Everything is seniority..........unless this happens............and this guy was hired then........and this company merges with that.....yada yada yada" They've corrupted the sanctity of seniority and now it's up in the air. With ALPA your seniority and date of hire means absolutely nothing. They've taken a 50+ years stance of strict date of hire seniority and suddently made it negotiable. Do you understand what I'm saying? "IT'S NEGOTIABLE". Negotiable by who pays who off or who stands to gain the most money. Corruption and greed. So sit back and shun your brothers and sisters at USAir. What did they ever do to you except give you jumpseats and do everything they could for their fellow crewmembers while going through hell with some of the worst airline managements in history. They are the old Piedmont which was once the darling of the South; the old PSA out west; and Allegheny of PA. Some of the nicest crewmembers I've ever known yet they get bashed on this forum by those that think that they are themselves gods born with 2000 hours in their logbook. Just wait. This is an era of big mergers and by the time you wake up and really see what is going on it may be too late. Your seniority is up for grabs for whomever is willing to buy it and ALPA will happily sell it.
A word of advice from a still young guy that's been flying this business for over 20years and has been in ALPA, APA, and The Teamsters. I've "been to the puppet show and seen the strings".
Once and if the seniority list is implemented EVERY AW pilot will become a Captain while East pilots hired in 1988 will still be F/Os. The West pilots will capitalize on the East's attrition. Over 300 retirements a year. The West goes from a regional airline to a Legacy carrier overnight suddenly inheriting things they never had such as international flying and USAir's domination of the North East. Let's not forget for several straight quarters the west division has been losing millions while the east has been making hundreds of millions all the while the east being paid less for the same airplanes, pay more for less medical benefits, and make profits to subsidize the west's profit sharing. Remember if you "lose" money you don't get profit sharing boys and girls. Funny how the west is losing money but earning profit sharing on the east's profits! Oh and who's name is on the airplanes? I wonder why? Do you think a NY businessman who rides the shuttle from NY to DC 5 times a week is going to buy a ticket on "America West" who? An American buddy told me that New Yorkers keep asking him if America West is the western division of American Airlines. Go figure.
AW did not bail out or buy USAir It was a "merger". Look up the definition if you don't know what it is. They saved each other and that is quoted by Mr. Doug Parker. Arbitration is not a contest. It's supposed to be a win win and give and take for both sides. What did the west give? 500 senior guys at USAir that are flying international get to stay there. Did you know that every one of them retires in less than two years and 200 have already retired! If this was not a windfall for AW then I'd like to know what is. Please tell me. And we have ALPA merger policy to thank for that one. A merger policy that allows ONE man (arbitrator) to make a decision affecting thousands of employees. Oh yea and the two pilots from other airlines that were helping the arbitrator wrote publically saying that the arbitrator was basically off his rocker and that they completely disagreed with his decision. Ah but ALPA merger policy states that those pilots have no official say.
So the young, dumb, and uninformed say, "Well you agreed to arbitration so you get what you get". Sure we also agree to judges but if the judge puts you in jail for 30 years for shoplifting then I think you may have something to say besides, "Oh well that was the judge's decision so I must agree. Duh". Those of you in ALPA beware. All we have in this business is seniority and that's based on your date of hire. That's what the rule was when we all started this game. ALPA and ALPA only in the 1980's messed with the sacred idea of seniority. Starting with the TWA/Ozark merger ALPA changed their stance, "Everything is seniority..........unless this happens............and this guy was hired then........and this company merges with that.....yada yada yada" They've corrupted the sanctity of seniority and now it's up in the air. With ALPA your seniority and date of hire means absolutely nothing. They've taken a 50+ years stance of strict date of hire seniority and suddently made it negotiable. Do you understand what I'm saying? "IT'S NEGOTIABLE". Negotiable by who pays who off or who stands to gain the most money. Corruption and greed. So sit back and shun your brothers and sisters at USAir. What did they ever do to you except give you jumpseats and do everything they could for their fellow crewmembers while going through hell with some of the worst airline managements in history. They are the old Piedmont which was once the darling of the South; the old PSA out west; and Allegheny of PA. Some of the nicest crewmembers I've ever known yet they get bashed on this forum by those that think that they are themselves gods born with 2000 hours in their logbook. Just wait. This is an era of big mergers and by the time you wake up and really see what is going on it may be too late. Your seniority is up for grabs for whomever is willing to buy it and ALPA will happily sell it.
A word of advice from a still young guy that's been flying this business for over 20years and has been in ALPA, APA, and The Teamsters. I've "been to the puppet show and seen the strings".
Last edited by Jettubby; 10-04-2007 at 09:29 PM.
10-04-2007, 09:16 PM
#33
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 81
The facts: ALPA bought a program that ran different senarios of merging the America West and USAirways pilots. The computer spit out 10 senarios. They ranged from the best to the worst for ALL pilots. The best senario put ALL pilots from both west and east at the top 10% of seniority in their last few years before retirement. Sounds fair. Everyone retires a Captain. This best case senario just so happened to be almost identical to a date of hire merged list. This was the best case for ALL pilots. Isn't that what ALPA is supposed to be about; the best for everyone? All 10 senarios were given to the arbitrator and guess which one he ruled to be in effect? #10. The worst senario. That is fact. You just have to ask youself what made this 80+ yr old arbitrator rule from a best for everyone to the worst senario that a computer program purchased by ALPA came up with? Bought off? Mad at someone? A lunatic? No one will ever know.
Last edited by Jettubby; 10-04-2007 at 09:22 PM.
10-04-2007, 09:37 PM
#34
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
Tell that to any West captain that would have been junior to furloughed AAA pilots if integrated via DOH.
Last edited by Jettubby; 10-05-2007 at 07:24 AM.
10-04-2007, 10:22 PM
#35
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by all4114all
Name of ALPA carrier doing well and justification for using ranger insignia, sir.
I can answer half that question - FedEx is an ALPA carrier and they seem to be doing quite well. As for the Ranger insignia, just a guess but......
10-06-2007, 02:55 PM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 52
US Airways is smart enough to dump ALPA. However, I understand that UAL has since dropped their efforts to remove ALPA. Looks like ALPA will be around for a while. Go help us!
US AIRWAYS to dump ALPA.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071004/20071004006047.html?.v=1
US AIRWAYS to dump ALPA.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071004/20071004006047.html?.v=1
10-08-2007, 12:42 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B727
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by Ranger
Interesting. I tell you how I feel (fact) and some poge comes in and says I'm trying to scare you. My post was not pro ALPA. It was pro contract. That lovely little device that provides you with, at the very least, the minimum of protections. And what the poge apparently fails to understand is that my ALPA is not the same as the ALPA on other properties. Each negotiates their own deal.
Bottom line, there is at least one ALPA carrier that is doing OK. It's not perfect, but having experienced the alternative, I'll take our contract in a heartbeat. What each of you supports is your own decision. If that scares you, you should probably seek out professional help. My cush job not withstanding.
Bottom line, there is at least one ALPA carrier that is doing OK. It's not perfect, but having experienced the alternative, I'll take our contract in a heartbeat. What each of you supports is your own decision. If that scares you, you should probably seek out professional help. My cush job not withstanding.
I'll say it again: A contract is only as good as the union behind it.
10-08-2007, 02:22 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD-11/10 Captain
Posts: 533
Originally Posted by org1
Ranger, I'm not going to be sarcastic, biting or otherwise, but a contract is only as good as the union's will to fight for it. Ask anyone at Emery Worldwide how long ALPA fought for us and our contract (which by the way was touted by ALPA as being "the best first contract ever" by the roadshow preparing to shove it down our throats. I agree with you about a contract being necessary, but ALPA isn't the union to fight for it.
I'll say it again: A contract is only as good as the union behind it.
I'll say it again: A contract is only as good as the union behind it.
We might differ slightly on just one point. I tend to lay more credit/blame at the feet of the people who run the local union and not at the national level. Those folks wouldn't be the ones walking the picket line (for the most part) nor taking the hits.
10-08-2007, 09:17 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B727
Posts: 194
Agree. However, to clarify, ALPA national has more control than some would think. They control the purse strings and the legal resources. At EWA we were placed inactive and our MEC replaced by a custodian that had run for MEC Chair and received less than 10% of the vote in the last election. Our members had NO say in what happened after the shutdown and our replacement by contractors. We were pretty much told to sit down and be quiet. So while in some cases the blame must go local, I don't see how it could in our case. We had to hire our own law firm just to force ALPA to take action against the company.
Originally Posted by Ranger
I agree. Read my response again. It was not a pro-ALPA response, it was a pro-contract response. I've lived on both sides of the fence and certainly don't ever want to revisit the side that gives management full control over every facet of my working life. We're all pretty much the same in this business. If we could figure out a way to cut a better deal with the Brotherhood of Pipefitters and Wrench Twisters, we'd do it.
We might differ slightly on just one point. I tend to lay more credit/blame at the feet of the people who run the local union and not at the national level. Those folks wouldn't be the ones walking the picket line (for the most part) nor taking the hits.
We might differ slightly on just one point. I tend to lay more credit/blame at the feet of the people who run the local union and not at the national level. Those folks wouldn't be the ones walking the picket line (for the most part) nor taking the hits.
10-08-2007, 09:54 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,483
The East pilots spent their years working for a stagnant airline that had no real growth. That is not the fault of the West pilots. If you won't upgrade in your time left flying that is because you have spent your years flying for an airline that did not expand. We did not have that at AWA. We had 5 year Captains, heck we had 6 month Captains when I got hired in 1987. We doubled the size of the airline between 86 and 87. Why should we pay the price for your stagnant career? What was your career expectation the day before the merger was announced? About 1 month and you were out of cash. We (AWA) made the payroll for June of 05, that's how bad it was.
Parker can say what he wants to you guys back East but he cannot lie to the SEC. Look at the papers filed in bankruptcy court - US Airways was Aquired by AWA holdings. But you know, it doesn't really matter much now. The award was done by ALPA rules and you guys even got to pick the arbitrator - the same guy that gave the Shuttle guys a victory in their seniority award against you. That has to tell you how bad your case for DOH was.
By whining and moaning about the unfairness of it all you are doing nothing but dragging yourself down. You have a job, a job that can pay you a lot more and recover some of what you have lost in terms of pay and lifestyle. All you have to do is show up and attend the Joint Negotiation sessions, and get on board with a new contract.
Remember, the West pilots did not want you, UAL did not want you, no other carrier wanted you. So **** and get with the program. The sooner you guys lose the attitude and enjoy life the better we all will be.
Parker can say what he wants to you guys back East but he cannot lie to the SEC. Look at the papers filed in bankruptcy court - US Airways was Aquired by AWA holdings. But you know, it doesn't really matter much now. The award was done by ALPA rules and you guys even got to pick the arbitrator - the same guy that gave the Shuttle guys a victory in their seniority award against you. That has to tell you how bad your case for DOH was.
By whining and moaning about the unfairness of it all you are doing nothing but dragging yourself down. You have a job, a job that can pay you a lot more and recover some of what you have lost in terms of pay and lifestyle. All you have to do is show up and attend the Joint Negotiation sessions, and get on board with a new contract.
Remember, the West pilots did not want you, UAL did not want you, no other carrier wanted you. So **** and get with the program. The sooner you guys lose the attitude and enjoy life the better we all will be.
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