Anyone that doesn't agree with your position is a lunatic? There are valid arguements on both sides. DL pilots have given up the chance to open Section 6 next year when there is a good posibility the economy is in better shape. Many were hoping for much more in compensation, scope etc in a 4 year deal. I'll never forget the hammering my paycheck received especially that last 14 percent. Getting minimal payraises and locking them in for 4-5 years all in the name of group unity makes this a tough yes vote for many here. Combine that with the very real possibilty of delayed upgrades, smaller lower paying equipment, base shake ups etc, and it's no surprise that many are on the fence.

Getting lots of cash together by the company to do this deal is not my problem. That is the problem of managment and the board of directors. That is not the Union's problem either. The problem that "our union" has is that it thinks its a player in the arena of big business. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But I guess that our big equity stake in this new company will be able to buy a cup of coffee and a donought when this is all through. That will be its value and I guess that is supposed to make us all feel like we contributed something to making our respective companies decide to merge into one big happy airline. Believe that and the fallacy of large egos will certainly continue to erode this profession.

BTW we cannot open section six next year. We gave that up in LOA 19.

Some people just don't get it. If a no vote happens dal mgt has dal pilots locked in to the loa 19 box. Dal doesn't have to renegotiate anything with the dal pilot group. They do have to negotiate with the Nwa side. A No vote does nothing but divide the groups.

I don't think there's any box that LOA 19 locks us into. We get essentially the same things as the JPWA with a few minor subtractions. You will almost cetainly get the same deal to keep the wheels from coming off. The company can not unlock the full value of the merger without a JPWA which would eventually force them to negotiate. I'm undecided for a multitude of reasons but to state that there is no choice but to ratify this is flat wrong in my opinion. Many here are still severely hurting from what was lost in BK and, rightly or wrongly, see this as the final chance to have any leverage to recover more meaningful gains. Gains which would eventually benefit both groups.

I posted this on the other thread that got moved, but this is just my humble opinion.

The reason I voted Yes is quite simple. It has nothing to do with growing a pair. Nothing to do with risking a fight now. It all has to do with keeping what we negotiate. The world for unions has changed. We simply have to acknowledge the power of market forces. If our salaries get too far ahead of our competitors, they will begin to eat away at us. That's what happened to UAL and DAL when those salaries got too far ahead of the market. Low-life LCC's jumped into an industry with virtually no barriers to entry and began undercutting. The result - UAL, DAL, NWA, etc had to give up all of their salary gains in bankruptcy court - even to levels below those low-life LCC's.

I would like to keep the gains we obtain this time around. We will do that by getting our pay above everyone else...just not too far above everyone else.

Carl

My point was that DAL mgmt has the DAL pilot group locked into LOA 19 in the event that the JCBA is voted down. At that time they will need to get a similar agreement set up with NWA in order to get access to our scope provisions. You can pretty much guarantee that a plan is already in place in the event it gets voted down by either side. They can get almost the same effects while having us working under two separate LOA's. Not all of them but a lot of them. If that happens we will eventually have to get a new agreement at some point and the SLI will move forward regardless except that would force arbitration. Our MEC's have the FACTs and know the details. I trust that if both sides agreed and unanimously ratified this TA because they felt this was the best we could do right now, that it is the best we can do right now under current conditions.

This is the time to move forward together as a single unified pilot group, build up the warchest and set up for when we have more negotiating power. When we really do into section 6 talks we as a 12000+ sized pilot group will have the negotiating ability. Not to mention the company will be holding a handful of IOU's to this great pilot group. JMHO we'll see

A couple of thoughts:

Why do you think we'll have any more negotiating power as a "12,000+ sized pilot group" than we have with our respective companies at this time? We won't. We will NEVER have as much negotiating power as we have right now. Ever. Once managment has us under one contract and SLI, they will no longer have the need to play ball with us for the next 4+ years. And even when this POS finally becomes amendable, I'm just not buying your argument that a bigger pilot group will have more "negotiating ability" with a bigger company.


As for the "handful of IOUs," are you really that naive? If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist. Do you think there will be any goodwill on the company's part for the next negotiation? Any JPWA "warm fuzzy" will be a distant memory. They will intimidate us, bully us, and generally try to pound the pilots in the ass during the next negotiation, just like they always have and always will.

IOUs...you've got to be kidding.

IOU's was a figure of speech, guess you missed that. I am done arguing this with you because you obviously prefer the self destructive approach.

We'll see what happens in a few days

Does anybody really believe a DAL no vote will not create a need by management and ALPA to quickly get back together to seek a solution that will get a combined contract on the property. Whatever those solutions are, there are changes to be made that can make this acceptable to all. In the mean time quit trying to influence votes with a end of the world senario. That is why we vote.

One other note. Why does nobody put in their two cents on the NWA vote. Is it that great a deal for NWA guys that the approval from NWA side is a forgone conclusion and all we hear is why the DAL side needs to vote yes so you have one big happy family. Maybe that has a influence on folks on the fence