National Seniority Protocol
09-02-2008, 08:32 PM
#22
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Position: EMB 145 CPT
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Originally Posted by boilerpilot
Oh, trust me, I definitely think that there should be a national list that at least guarantees some sort of seniority accrual, whether that be seniority and pay or one or the other. While I think this, I don't think it should be straight 1:1, in an attempt to reward those who have stuck it out at a regional for longer, just to have another person come in and make more than them and upgrade quicker than them, because they've suffered at United for longer than some of the FOs have been alive.
I urge people to look at WHO is proposing this: UALPA. While I'm sure that greater minds than my own will be able to concoct a plan that would bring the idea of a National Seniority List FAIRLY to pilots in the US, my fear is that this will be yet another way that the pilot unions at the legacy carriers will, like somebody said, strongarm their own career preservation. In other words, I see this potentially being another way for the junior pilots in this profession to get screwed, just like what has come with scope relaxation and age 65. Both things seem like excellent ideas, providing jet jobs for younger pilots or allowing a pilot to plan his/her career out 40 years instead of 35 (if they choose), but what they have instead done is protect the existing jobs at the Legacy and Major carriers, while in all senses saying "to hell with you" to the rest of the profession.
To solidify my point, note the timing on UALPA bringing this up. They are trying to preserve the quality of the lives of those already at United (or who have been there for 10 years). While it is, of course, the duty of a Union to protect its members (not necessarily its future members), one might ask the question why something like this might not be brought up in times when United Pilots WEREN'T facing the prospect of hitting the streets? This is bringing up this issue when and only when it benefits the United pilots the most, not the other way around or when there might be a compromise between the established and the aspiring.
More food for thought, I guess. My faith in ALPA died a long time ago (not in Unions, but ALPA itself. I mean, John Prater makes over $500k a year?!), so perhaps I'm biased, but I've seen too many times where ALPA protects the few using the resources and dues of the many.
I urge people to look at WHO is proposing this: UALPA. While I'm sure that greater minds than my own will be able to concoct a plan that would bring the idea of a National Seniority List FAIRLY to pilots in the US, my fear is that this will be yet another way that the pilot unions at the legacy carriers will, like somebody said, strongarm their own career preservation. In other words, I see this potentially being another way for the junior pilots in this profession to get screwed, just like what has come with scope relaxation and age 65. Both things seem like excellent ideas, providing jet jobs for younger pilots or allowing a pilot to plan his/her career out 40 years instead of 35 (if they choose), but what they have instead done is protect the existing jobs at the Legacy and Major carriers, while in all senses saying "to hell with you" to the rest of the profession.
To solidify my point, note the timing on UALPA bringing this up. They are trying to preserve the quality of the lives of those already at United (or who have been there for 10 years). While it is, of course, the duty of a Union to protect its members (not necessarily its future members), one might ask the question why something like this might not be brought up in times when United Pilots WEREN'T facing the prospect of hitting the streets? This is bringing up this issue when and only when it benefits the United pilots the most, not the other way around or when there might be a compromise between the established and the aspiring.
More food for thought, I guess. My faith in ALPA died a long time ago (not in Unions, but ALPA itself. I mean, John Prater makes over $500k a year?!), so perhaps I'm biased, but I've seen too many times where ALPA protects the few using the resources and dues of the many.
If you don't like how this specific resolution is written, it can be changed! Talk to your MEC chairman and tell him how you feel and if you have ideas, give it to them. Ask them to put a motion on the table to amend the resolution with your idea.
09-03-2008, 03:29 AM
#23
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Posts: 326
So....why was this posted on the regional board?
Since it is here, there are a couple of issues with it. #1 - With the possibility of United going under, this seems like a desperate grab by their pilots to secure their future. #2 - The only way such a list would work is if it was industry wide, not just ALPA and not just union (yes, I am an ALPA supporter and member). #3 - It was mentioned that this should effect longevity - the only thing that would accomplish is effectively ending the career of any senior pilot who gets displaced. No company is going to be willing to pick up the salary of a senior captain, no matter how much his experience should be worth.
Would love to see a National Seniority List coupled with a minimum wage based on experience, but it's not likely.
Since it is here, there are a couple of issues with it. #1 - With the possibility of United going under, this seems like a desperate grab by their pilots to secure their future. #2 - The only way such a list would work is if it was industry wide, not just ALPA and not just union (yes, I am an ALPA supporter and member). #3 - It was mentioned that this should effect longevity - the only thing that would accomplish is effectively ending the career of any senior pilot who gets displaced. No company is going to be willing to pick up the salary of a senior captain, no matter how much his experience should be worth.
Would love to see a National Seniority List coupled with a minimum wage based on experience, but it's not likely.
09-03-2008, 05:26 AM
#24
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Posts: 266
If this passes, IMHO, you will never be rehired by a second airline. What company will hire you at 12 year pay when they can get someone off the street for nothing.
The problem is with the supply of pilots. This idea works with the plumbers because they limit how many people are plumbers.
There are just too many pilots willing to work for next to nothing
The problem is with the supply of pilots. This idea works with the plumbers because they limit how many people are plumbers.
There are just too many pilots willing to work for next to nothing
09-03-2008, 08:54 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by cessnamann
This might work, but is it legal?
West coast longshoremen have a similar deal...they report to work at the union hall, and on any given day they might actually work for any company.
The problem with pilots is that there would always be folks willing to work outside the union, so non-union companies would end up with a cost-advantage. This does NOT happen on the docks, but pilots are probably unwilling to break the legs necessary to ensure total compliance.
09-03-2008, 09:16 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
West coast longshoremen have a similar deal...they report to work at the union hall, and on any given day they might actually work for any company.
Can you see how messed up this would be. Tuesday you work for Fedex and friday you fly for American.
Count me as a no way
09-03-2008, 09:55 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by fdxmd11fo
Count me as a no way
Integrating the seniority list at just two companies proves to be a challenging and daunting task. The question is not whether or not to create a National Seniority List, but rather HOW do we create a National Senority List.
I can't seem to find anyway that a realistically fair and equitable list can be made.
This is a terrible idea, and ALPA should be pooling it's resources and shifting it's focus to improving the QOL, pay, and work rules in our current industry.
09-03-2008, 10:10 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by gtechpilot
So....why was this posted on the regional board?
Since it is here, there are a couple of issues with it. #1 - With the possibility of United going under, this seems like a desperate grab by their pilots to secure their future. #2 - The only way such a list would work is if it was industry wide, not just ALPA and not just union (yes, I am an ALPA supporter and member). #3 - It was mentioned that this should effect longevity - the only thing that would accomplish is effectively ending the career of any senior pilot who gets displaced. No company is going to be willing to pick up the salary of a senior captain, no matter how much his experience should be worth.
Would love to see a National Seniority List coupled with a minimum wage based on experience, but it's not likely.
Since it is here, there are a couple of issues with it. #1 - With the possibility of United going under, this seems like a desperate grab by their pilots to secure their future. #2 - The only way such a list would work is if it was industry wide, not just ALPA and not just union (yes, I am an ALPA supporter and member). #3 - It was mentioned that this should effect longevity - the only thing that would accomplish is effectively ending the career of any senior pilot who gets displaced. No company is going to be willing to pick up the salary of a senior captain, no matter how much his experience should be worth.
Would love to see a National Seniority List coupled with a minimum wage based on experience, but it's not likely.
It may be suspect why UAL proposes this now but it doesn't mean its not a bad idea. The resolution says that it would be for all professional pilots regardless of union or not.
Originally Posted by fdxmd11fo
That is also a problem. The union people may or may not work that day, and they may or may not work for the same company each day.
Can you see how messed up this would be. Tuesday you work for Fedex and friday you fly for American.
Count me as a no way
Can you see how messed up this would be. Tuesday you work for Fedex and friday you fly for American.
Count me as a no way
Originally Posted by DeadHead
I'll second that,
Integrating the seniority list at just two companies proves to be a challenging and daunting task. The question is not whether or not to create a National Seniority List, but rather HOW do we create a National Senority List.
I can't seem to find anyway that a realistically fair and equitable list can be made.
This is a terrible idea, and ALPA should be pooling it's resources and shifting it's focus to improving the QOL, pay, and work rules in our current industry.
Integrating the seniority list at just two companies proves to be a challenging and daunting task. The question is not whether or not to create a National Seniority List, but rather HOW do we create a National Senority List.
I can't seem to find anyway that a realistically fair and equitable list can be made.
This is a terrible idea, and ALPA should be pooling it's resources and shifting it's focus to improving the QOL, pay, and work rules in our current industry.
09-03-2008, 10:21 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 266
That may not be where this resolution is going but that is how it works.
Why would Fedex hire a pilot layed off at airline X and start them out at 12year pay when they can get someone off the street at 1st year pay.
This would just encourage people to go wherever the highest pay was. Every time a new contract was signed everyone would want to go there.
What is in it for the company? Contract talks are give and take. What are you willing to give up for this? Should we all start at commuter pay no matter what the airline you are working for.
I say again, our problem is that there are too many pilots. If you want to raise pay and QOL, you have to limit the number of pilots. No one just starts as a plumber. You have to be a journeyman first for a few years and the unions limit how many plumbers there are.
Why would Fedex hire a pilot layed off at airline X and start them out at 12year pay when they can get someone off the street at 1st year pay.
This would just encourage people to go wherever the highest pay was. Every time a new contract was signed everyone would want to go there.
What is in it for the company? Contract talks are give and take. What are you willing to give up for this? Should we all start at commuter pay no matter what the airline you are working for.
I say again, our problem is that there are too many pilots. If you want to raise pay and QOL, you have to limit the number of pilots. No one just starts as a plumber. You have to be a journeyman first for a few years and the unions limit how many plumbers there are.
09-03-2008, 10:46 AM
#30
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by Nevets
If "the question is not whether or not to create a National Seniority List, but rather HOW do we create a National Senority List", then how can it be a "terrible idea"? In a way, this idea is going to help to improve "QOL, pay, and work rules in our current industry."
It's almost as saying this National Seniority List will remove a company's right to hire who they want.
What if a company decides to hire a pilot with 3,000 hours and 3 years at a regional over a 15 year furloughed United pilot? I don't think ALPA is in a position to determine the hiring/firing practices of every airline across the board.
Additionally, ALPA doesn't represent the entire pilot population in this country, so why would they take steps and measures to try and regulate every certificated pilot in this country.
I fear that is way to much power for one organization, and based on the past few years, and the increase in disillusioned pilot, I think that ALPA has a lot of "proving" to do.
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