Adolphus,

That "unskilled laborer" might just use their body to block your cockpit from a terrorist, restart your heart with an AED, or stand behind you in a picket line, but that doesn't seem to mean much to you in the 1% club. Most think of them as part of the team, and it they're stronger, YOU are stronger.

But it is probably a waste of time to try to explain it to you... Hey, as long as you're represented....

And yes, as a proud trade unionist, like most of your fellow DAL cockpit crewmembers, I have attended ALPA, IBT, and IPA rallies along with nurses trying to organize. Most pilots would wear that as a badge of pride, and you can consider me one of them.

I would be proud to wear the APA pin in support for my fellow Americans, aviation workers, and Flight Attendants especially.

In Unity,

B727DRVR

 

Adolphus, 2 quick questions...

1. Would you be getting a paycheck from Delta if we didn't take care of the customers in the back?
2. Would you work at DL as a pilot without a union?

 

I don't understand your point?

1. No thats why we have FAs. They are required by the FAA to be on the airplane. I never said they weren't.
2. YES

 

I love it it when leftist union guys spew out words like unity or solidarity. These words are so naive and sophomoric. I am afraid that your views are on the radical out lier of the bell curve.

You post your opinion as if they are the norm. You put words in my mouth as if a stated them. You make assumption as if you are psychic. When I call you out on it you respond with BS union propaganda.

What gives? Have you had a coherent conversation with anyone but yourself in the last 30 years?

 

Besides wearing an AFA pin on your tie, I have seen pilots write 'vote union' on the paper you give us with your names and/or on TATL flight on the map with the tracks on it that you give the 'A'.

You guys might not think this will help, but it really does!!!!

I ask you...PLEASE HELP US UNIONIZE, because united we are stronger!!!

 

Organizing and unionizing does not mean that your job will be better or your company stronger. There are many examples. UAW is a great one.

While F/As do an important job, the arguments here about what they do are still examples of jobs that are not really skilled/professional labor. A bouncer blocks people from entering a door. I don't think anybody would argue that bouncers are anything but unskilled labor. There are many basic jobs that are given basic first aid training and taught how to use a defibrillator. The truth is that somebody can walk off the street and within a few weeks be fully trained to do the job of FA.

Just because you have a lot of coworkers that do the same job as you does not mean that you should be able to hold your company hostage. I believe there is enough competition on both sides of the equation to keep things mostly balanced. There are many companies at which you can be a FA. So, if you don't like the work rules/pay at your company, there are other places to work. The FA can be trained easily enough that the airline should be able to replace a fair enough FAs with whatever the market will accept for pay that they should be able to keep the pay at 'market' price. Just because people are willing to do your job for less money does not mean you should be able to unionize to protect your paycheck. That's bad for the company. It's bad for the country.

By the way, I feel the same way about pilots for the most part. The market has told pilots what they are really worth. Many are finally accepting it and making decisions based upon reality. Some are still clinging to their blame of evil management trying to keep labor down. Unionizing can be a great way for a labor group to fix gross inequities in the market. But, you guys keep complaining that your 'brothers' are screwing you by picking up open time and working on their days off, etc. That's not your brother screwing you. that's your brother telling you that the market of labor is willing to work more hours for less money. It isn't what you want to happen. It isn't what you want to hear. But, it's reality.

 

Well if you really want to put it that way, I can go to an accellerated flight program get my commercial and 300 hours and be in the left seat at a regional in 12-15 weeks. But thats not how I or many other look at things, I know that Delta is now the largest airline in the world...and will have some of the most qualified and professional employees. So if you choose to look at your F/As as unskilled labor, then thats all you are going to see. However, if you look at them as people who have an essential role in this undustry and as co-workers...then you would realize that they too should have the same right as you do, and thats the right to have a voice! Airlines primary source of revenue is ticket sales...F/As spend more time trying to make those passengers happy than any other person in the company. Also, you may forget that we are there primarily for your safety and must be able to evacuate an aircraft quickly, we handle medical emergencies, we are babysitters at times, and we do our best to accomodate YOUR needs! Now do you need a bouncer at an establishment? Well last time I checked there is no government regulation that says a certain amount of bouncers must be in the establishment for any customer to come in. So you might want to rethink your position...

Can anyone be a pilot? Yes. Can anyone be a good pilot? No.
Can anyone be a F/A? Yes. Can anyone be a good F/A? No.


I know HR works hard at DL to hire the best pilots that apply, and I know HR works hard to hire the best F/As that apply. So we consider ourself professional, just like you do. Earlier this year DL hired about 1500 F/As, DL had received more than 80000 applications, so about 4% of those that applied were hired...I would say we aren't ANYONE.


Here is what a fellow F/A wrote...
As a professional, our employer depends on us to take on important safety responsibilities. We have unique skills and training to take on complex and sensitive roles. Our work is usually self-directed and requires that we direct and manage passengers. Often our decisions and actions affect the security and well being of others. We follow a professional code, and do what it takes to get the job done right. Which makes it hard to understand why we don’t always get the respect we deserve in the workplace. Senior management has to run the place, that’s true. But shouldn’t they also listen to the flight attendants [safety specialists] who have the expertise to get the work done?

Flight Attendants who do not have a union face many employment problems every day:
• Lack of job security
• Lack of salary protection
• Inconsistent treatment
• Lack of say in scheduling
• No coherent voice in dealing with the employer
• No impartial process for resolving complaints
• No protection against unfair treatment

The workplace has become increasingly more demanding and tenuous a place for professional flight attendants. How did this come about, particularly at a time when “professional workers” are supposed to be gaining importance in our economy?

The Professional Workplace Has Changed
Flight Attendants have faced unique problems during the restructuring of work over the last decade. Many professional positions have disappeared either through lay-off or attrition as management has used bankruptcy as a means to destroy collective bargaining. Flight Attendants who remain in the workplace have seen their workloads skyrocket with full flights and minimum crew and a decrease in their wages, benefits and retirement.

“Despite the trends, some Delta and NWA flight attendants still believe that individual or collegial relations with the employer are most appropriate to professional values. Those values include personal responsibility for work and assignments, independence of action and judgment, and an abiding commitment to a professional code and duties. Unionism is dismissed as a mode of relations that emphasizes collective action rather than individual responsibility, replaces independent judgment with executive or mass decision making, and sacrifices professional responsibility to the picket line.”

Unions Complement Professional Values
“Having a union can address these problems and enhance professional values in the workplace. The core principles of unionism are consistent with professionalism. Both movements can trace part of their histories to the guild movements where workers with particular sets of skills in common joined together both to protect their control over those skills and to protect their economic position. Many professional codes, for instance, indicate that members have a duty to see that they are adequately compensated for their work.”

Rather than being contrary to professional values, a union offers a strong alliance to those values. A union makes it possible for professionals to come together to represent their own interests to their employers, to talk about the unique issues professional flight attendants face, and to deal with the problems that arise in a constantly changing workplace. A professional union allows flight attendants to gain a say in their workplace through negotiation with management. It also allows flight attendants to determine how that say will be expressed. A union is the only guarantee that flight attendants will have a voice in their workplace and that they’ll be regarded as equals in setting the terms and conditions of their work.

Joining a union is the only legal guarantee that the employer will consult and negotiate over workplace issues. It’s the only guarantee that the agreements reached with the employer can be enforced quickly and easily. It’s the only guarantee of an impartial process for resolving problems that arise between the employer and professional employees.

Individuals alone hold little power, but together their strength and influence will flourish. This is the reason AFA is so important – we give our members strength; we give our members bargaining power; we give our members support; we give our members industry-leading advise, training and advocacy; we give our members a VOICE…

DESTINATION: REPRESENTATION

 

Really? Tell me which regional airline puts pilots in the left seat at 300 hours/12-15 weeks. I'll be sure to keep the family off that one. How much flight time and how many weeks of experience do you think the average Delta pilot has when he/she moves to the left seat?

 

You totally missed my point. My point wasn't that you were somehow a lesser person than a pilot. The pilots that work at your company would not be hired with 300 hours, but it is true that pilots as a group are being treated as less and less of a professional organization. That's part of the point I made. Unionizing does not change your value in the market. It artificially changes your wages at the cost of your company's bottom line. I don't really believe that pilots need to be as highly unionized as they are. You all complain about your wages, but you join a union that takes away your personal ability to excel in your organization. You will never earn a raise based upon your performance. You can only earn a higher paycheck by forcing your employer to pay everybody more money. You have no incentive to do a good job other than personal pride. That's not good for your company. Anything that is not good for your company ends up not being good for you in the long run because you rely on the company's profitability.

 

I wasn't trying to turn this into a pilot vs. FA thing. I was trying to say that we are all subject to market forces when it comes to our paychecks. If we ignore the market forces and demand wages at an artificial rate, then our companies fail because they cannot compete in the marketplace. Then, you win higher wages until the day your company closes its door. I know I'm presenting a simplified version and there are some reasons to have the union available to the labor, but the uses usually discussed on here are to hold the company hostage because you believe you're being screwed because your wages do not look the same as the guys at the top of the company.

Pilots and FAs are both a group of workers no different than dispatchers and baggage handlers. Yes, your pay and benefits should differ in each of those groups based on market forces. FAs do not make the same as pilots because the skills and responsibilities are different. FAs don't make the same as baggage handlers for similar reasons.

If you think organizing is going to change that, you are just kidding yourself. You may bully the company into some sort of concession if you strike, but you will lose in the long run. I believe that goes for any group. Detroit priced itself out of the market, and you can see how good that turned out for everybody.