Mod note:

Unless someone knows the name and can point it out on a scab list - let's drop the scab label. APC policy on scab naming is clear. Point, set, game, match.

 

Awesome! Getting off the topic of scab but that's ok....This is far more than a black and white issue.

Well in a free market the market decides the pay, not the employer or the unions. The employer can make an offer but if it's not competitive that employer will not get the best employees accepting positions. So the natural balance is that the best and most experienced employees stay at the higher paying (with best benefits) jobs while the lower paying employers get the low experience, less qualified, less desirable, employees as well as the highest attrition (increased training costs). This is how it works with virtually any other type of job or profession in the free world and it works very well.

Clearly there are things that set the piloting profession apart from other professions but it's nothing that necessitates an entirely different way of doing things. People who are pro anything are very good at rationalizing their position and firmly believing it. We also refer to it as fanboy syndrome. Kind of like the irrational arguments that develop in discussions that may ensue in a Mac vs PC debate or even a liberal vs conservative debate.

I am not anti union. I firmly believe that unions have a place and serve a solid purpose and that ALPA and other pilots' unions have helped to further the cause of aviation safety. The problem I see is that the system has evolved to cause a negative long term effect on the profession and has allowed management to exploit the system to the detriment of most pilots while benefiting a few. The pro union mentality sort of blinds pilots to that exploitation.

I'm pro pilot and pro economic growth at the same time. Being exclusively pro union is too narrow a focus and plays into the hands of big airline management.

Not really what I see. It's more of a generational thing. Most people tend to be pro- whatever benefits themselves in the near term without looking at the larger issues. Ninety percent of pilots believe they are in the top ten percent of skill and ability so that's just the nature of us and it creates a lot of posturing. What I see is that those who do see past their own noses tend to be younger pilots but with reasonable amounts of experience.

Thanks again. So my feeling is that seniority worked very well in the old days when most pilots got on at an airline in their twenties and expected to stay there for life. Thirty to forty years ago it was widely perceived that if you didn't get on at an airline before age 30 your career was stalled and possibly over. Back then there were no massive regional airlines and the airlines we had all paid pretty well.

Deregulation changed everything and airlines started popping up like weeds and lasting only a few years while established airlines merged or went out of business. Suddenly the seniority system showed signs of problems and people talked about it. A lot of senior pilots were on the street or were concerned they were about to be. Airline management initially exploited them by encouraging them to become scabs.

It has always been a tactic of management to turn union employees against each other and they started to learn new ways to do it. They quickly realized they could reduce labor costs by outsourcing to commuter airlines which up until then were small and only employed a very small percentage of the nation's professional pilots while providing an opportunity for young civilian pilots to build experience and move on very quickly. The "code share was invented and the regional airline model exploded and fueled the demand for regional jets. Modern regional jets are highly efficient fully capable jet aircraft that can do medium haul flights with 50 to 90 passengers while operating under the same marketing and name as the major airlines.. These are not commuter flights.

Airlines built this massive industry while retaining the philosophy of it being a training ground for low time pilots who didn't need to be paid well. The time it took to build experience to move to a "major" was gradually increasing over time and the pay never went up. The pilot profession (and the unions) was the frog slowly being brought to a boil. I'd say the water is boiling now...regional pilots have spent over a decade there and some as long as ten years in the right seat earning near poverty wages.

Management may have burnt themselves now because they put too many pilots into this pool of slowly boiling water and realize that there aren't as many suckers jumping in after them. By scraping too close to the bottom of the barrel they got the attention of Congress who pushed up the hiring minimums. Their reaction is to cry to the government of a pilot shortage with a massive lobbying and PR campaign and we all know what's going on with that.

A system that used to make sense 40 years ago now seems ridiculous if you stand back and look at it objectively. The only people who can't see that are the "frogs" who are still sitting in the pot of near boiling water.

If you try to explain to people outside our business how the captain of a large jet (such as an E175 or CRJ900) is only trying to build time to be a co pilot (for less money) on the jet sitting one gate over with the same paint job they can't understand the logic. Especially when that captain has been working for 10 or 15 years. They can't understand the logic because there isn't any logic. It's even more ludicrous to think (when things are moving quickly as they are now) that a low time college graduate can become the captain of that jet in only a couple years because his captain went back to being a copilot somewhere else for a pay cut. It's an inefficient distribution of overall pilot experience.

It's also bizarre to outsiders why a captain who lives in city A and commutes to city B can't apply to switch jobs with a captain of another airline (of the same code share even) who lives in city B and commutes to city A.

The regional airline business model is a scheme that only works because of the ability of management to exploit the seniority system and prevent lateral movement of pilots. Otherwise the market value for a captain would be pretty level regardless of the size of the jet (in fact a regional jet could theoretically pay higher than a heavy jet for high time captains that prefers to be closer to home). This is how they are able to force artificially low pay scales.

By keeping a small percentage of pilots at the top they have managed to maintain the illusion of the goal that pilots aspire to. To realistically measure pilot pay you must look at the average pay of all airline pilots, not just the top pay of which most pilots will never achieve in their career.


And I won't respond to Airhoss because he's not discussing this...he's just tossing insults and ignoring what I said.

 

It's clear? Really? Would you please link to the policy please, I'm unclear on what it is as I've never seen it posted on the site.


Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, must be a duck.

 

Much can be said about forgiveness, in fact entire books have been written about it. And still, so many questions remain unanswered, and so many controversies continue to rage. Can one truly forgive if he cannot forget? Does true forgiveness require forgetting? Does the offender have to ask for forgiveness before the offended can offer it? Does forgiveness erase consequences? Does the offender have to change his ways before he can be forgiven? Just as assuredly as you already have answers to some or all of those questions, other people reading the same questions have different answers or no answers.

Your Christian concept of forgiveness no doubt comes from the Bible, where we have examples of God's forgiveness being withheld contingent on repentance. In both the New Testament (Acts 3:19, Romans 8:1) and the Old Testament (Lamentations 3:42, II Kings 24:4), God's pardon is contingent upon obedience. His forgiveness requires action on the part of the offender.

Given that perspective, I see no obligation to forgive an unrepentant scab. While numerous examples have been offered in this thread of pilots who crossed a picket line under duress, or out of ignorance, and have subsequently apologized and asked for forgiveness, and even have paid fines as a symbol of recompense, those instances are comparatively rare. Most who scabbed believed they were doing the right thing, and still do.

Apart from the repentance aspect of forgiveness is the consequence of the act. If your next-door neighbor backs his car into your car and puts a dent in your fender, he can ask for your forgiveness, he can receive your forgiveness, and you might even eventually forget the incident. However, there's still a dent in your car. Lucky for you, we have ways of repairing dents, and pretty soon you can have it looking like it never happened, and you can treat your neighbor as if it never happened. Isn't that what forgiveness is all about? Acting as if it never happened? Of course, that's perfect forgiveness.

But what if the same neighbor murdered your wife? He can ask for your forgiveness, and he can receive your forgiveness, but that doesn't mean you can kiss your wife good night. When you're sitting on your front porch in that rocking chair in your retirement years, will you have forgotten that the love of your life was snatched away from you by a violent crime? There are consequences that cannot be escaped, cannot be reversed. The most obvious consequence is that your wife is gone, forever. The next most obvious is that your neighbor will spend some time in prison. In fact, he may spend the rest of his life in prison, or even be executed for his crime. Forgiveness cannot erase the consequences.

Still, you're probably thinking, forgiveness is about how YOU treat the neighbor, and you need to forgive him. You won't treat him any differently than you did before he committed the heinous act. You'll treat him as if it never happened.

So, what if the neighbor molested your 8-year-old daughter? He was caught, he confessed, he apologized and asked for your forgiveness, and you forgave him. He went to prison, "paid his debt to society", and he's now enjoying a quiet life, still in the house next door. Will you let him babysit your 8-year-old granddaughter? Do you treat him the same as before he molested your daughter, or do you treat him differently? I would guess that although he asked forgiveness, and you granted forgiveness, although he has paid his debt to society and you are trying to treat him as if it never happened, he will not be treated the same. His actions have consequences that can never be erased.

There are consequences that cannot be erased by forgiveness. Crossing a picket line undermines the efforts of employees to improve the working conditions and quality of life for their families. Countless families are harmed when a single selfish individual scoffs at everyone but himself to cross that line, and that harm inflicted on the families is not ever erased. Many readers will consider it outrageous to compare crossing a picket line with murdering a loved one or molesting a young girl, but the concepts are the same. The damage done was real, and permanent. Whatever struggles or successes one might have with the concept of forgiveness, the consequences of the offense are lasting.

It's not like accidentally bumping into a fender.






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I searched the Internet Brands Terms of Use (TOU) for "scab" and "naming" and found zero occurrences. I'm a bit unclear now on the "APC policy on scab naming", despite the cute reference to scoring a tennis match. What word does a player use to challenge the call of the umpire?


If I know the name and can point it out on a scab list, can I post that list here?






.

 

Yes TonyC and awax - it is mentioned nearly everytime that there is a thread or post about "scab" when it starts getting thrown around like candy.

TonyC - if you would like to post the Master Scab list - talk to an Admin.
There is a post started in OCt 2007 called 'Scab List' that eventually closed by the head Admin at the time; reasoning being that it encouraged the release of personal information.
The co-founder of APC once named a scab in a post - so I guess you have that going for you.You can always contact an Admin - or ask another moderator TonyC.


In your search of the TOS - did you come across these passages?
They are posted at the top of every forum home page.

If you are unfamiliar - read more.

 

Must be one of those cuz I said so policies? That is pretty far from "clear".

 

I hope you've got all your edits done, because I'd hate to be accused of misquoting you because I'm replying during the middle of another edit.


I did not search the TOS, because there is no TOS. Internet Brands has a Terms of Use page, and that's what I searched. Since you were so emphatic that the APC policy was clear, I thought perhaps there had been a recent change to add a clear "APC policy on scab naming" to the TOU. The rules have, after all, evolved over the years.


Are those passages in the Forum Owner's (Internet Brands') Terms of Use? No. In fact, the word "airline" is not in the TOU, much less "Airline Pilot Central Forums."

But, I do know where to find those passages. Those quotes come from an Announcement made by HSLD titled "Forum Rules." The Announcement appears above the list of thread titles on Forum Pages such as Major and Cargo and even Union Talk. (You won't find it on the "Search Results" page when you select "New Posts" like many people do most of the time.) But guess what does not appear in that announcement, even in the Union Talk forum. A clear "APC policy on scab naming" is not articulated in the Announcement. In fact, the word "scab" does not appear in the Announcement, in any forum.


So, while we know that Owners, Administrators, and Moderators have the right to remove, edit, move or edit threads, and to edit or remove posts, there is no mention of a clear "APC policy on scab naming." You stated ... wait, let me make sure I've got this right ...

awax asked for a link to the policy, saying he had never seen it posted. I observed that the policy is not stated in the ib Terms of Use. You can quote the whole TOU page if you like, but you haven't answered his question.

Here's a link to the Internet Brands Terms of Use.

Here's a link to the "Forum Rules" Announcement in the Union Talk Forum.

One cannot find a clear "APC policy on scab naming" at any of those places.


Oh, I'm quite familiar, thank-you-very-much. In fact, I was quite familiar and an active participant long before you registered your username at APC. There have been a lot of changes since then, and the rules and policies and terms have evolved as the site has grown, personnel have changed, and ownership has changed. But the question today, posed by awax, is, "Where is this clear APC policy on scab naming posted?"

Couldn't you be a helpful Moderator and point him to where the CLEAR policy is posted?

Instead, you offer only this?

Well, then it must be easy to find, and easy to link, right? That's all awax asked for -- just point us in the right direction, please.



Well, you see, I don't have any intention of posting a scab list, but your reference to posting one has me puzzled. You said:

Well, I know a name, and I can point it out on a scab list. But it doesn't make much sense for me to point to something here on my desk, or on my computer, or on my phone (I have several copies) when you can't see it there. In order to verify that I'm pointing to it on a scab list, it would only make sense that I share it here. After all, that's the instruction I'm reading in a "Mod note", right?

But don't worry, I've read the Terms of Use that the forum owner has posted.
A list of names associated with dates of birth, dates of employment, employee numbers, etc., discloses personal, confidential or proprietary information, and would therefore be a violation of Internet Brands' Terms of Use, even if you might think it's OK to post. That's why I found your instruction to be quite UN-clear, and possibly misleading. I thought by asking you the question about posting the scab list you might see the problem with your admonition.



So, the question remains ... what is the clear APC policy on scab naming?







.

 

Wow. Just to be clear. I've already stated my history and that I was never directly involved in any union disputes thus if someone calls me a "scab" in here it's just out of frustration and an unwillingness to discuss the topic at hand (which tends to be dynamic from post to post).

Someone may also call me a "scab lover" or something similar but that just proves that the word has devolved into a derogatory term used for petty name calling rather than an accurate term to describe a worker who decides to cross a picket line and work against a decision to strike.

I'd enjoy an honest discussion of my previous points without the name calling though.

 

The following poem by Jack London was written in 1915.

Ode To A Scab

After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain, and a combination backbone made of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles.

When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out. No man has a right to scab as long as there is a pool of water deep enough to drown his body in, or a rope long enough to hang his carcass with. Judas Iscariot was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his Master, he had character enough to hang himself. A scab hasn't.

Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas Iscariot sold his savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commission in the British Army. The modern strikebreaker sells his birthright, his country, his wife, his children, and his fellow men for an unfulfilled promise from his employer, trust, or corporation.

Nine gee,

You think the word scab has recently devolved into a derogatory term? Really? It always has been and it always will be. And the term Troll is a derogatory term for somebody who intentionally tries to disrupt an Internet forum or claims to be somebody or something that are not.

Maybe you ought to look those terms up. They'll provide some clarity in your life. The good news for you though, is that trolls seem to be a preferred and protected species on APC. Your future career on APC looks bright.