CFI to UAL CPP
02-12-2018, 02:47 PM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,202
Then I guess that's exactly what they should be doing after they get their CFI. Way less lives on the line and as soon as they build up the prerequisite time necessary, they get hired over here. Up until several years ago I always felt that our hiring practices were fairly solid.
02-12-2018, 03:09 PM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
But, if we are hiring into an entry level airplane, and that entry level plane is a 76 seat aircraft and we're hiring the best we can find, and the best we can find is a CFI only, then fine, hire that person. Why? Because that's the best we can find. Maybe our training and IOE footprint needs to look different at that time to bring the reality of the situation into focus.
Perhaps the right question to contemplate is this: Are we currently hiring the best candidates out there in the current market conditions? I see lots of qualified pilots out there for likely the next 2 to 4 years.
02-12-2018, 03:54 PM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 791
I knew nothing when I was a cfi. It took me a solid 18 months at a regional before I really understood how to be a good fo. You're half politician and half chameleon to smooth out the crazy. These kids are skipping years of professional development.
02-12-2018, 04:31 PM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 2,370
<snip>
Here’s the problem with the baseball analogy. The path is no longer curved and rocky, it’s a straight line from a Cessna to a jet. The last pilots that actually took the steps were hired by UA in the 90s. These were the pilots that instructed for ever just to get 1500 hours to get a job flying Navajos. Then finally moved up to Metros, Shorts and Bandits flying TRUE regional routes where you barely left the state.
Those operators don’t exist anymore and regionals fly 1000 mi routes.
<snip>
But anyone who wants to can experience old school regional flying with them, from a 206/207 to a Dash 8-100. They have the Navajos too.
02-12-2018, 09:35 PM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,207
He was still in learning mode. I think he is where he is and that isn't a bad thing necessarily. He will need to grow up both personally and professionally. Didn't see his flying ability, he was Bunkie.
My over-riding point is this: Lets focus harder on getting folks that have paid their dues, either in the private company ranks, or the military ranks. A dues paying member in good standing is what we want from an ALPA point of view, and to take that to the hiring realm, lets go after folks that have paid their dues and know what's what. They've earned a shot. Passing on a 23 year old instructor in favor of a 30 to 35 year old pilot with great and varied flight time is both an indicator of their commitment to the profession, and a good barometer of the experience they have had. We should be bringing in more experience, not less. We should be bringing in more knowledge, not less. We should be bringing in more maturity, not less. We should be bringing in more varied experience, not less.
If you were hiring a mechanic to work on your BMW, would you hire a mechanic that just finished hand-tool training, or would you find a guy that knows his way around a German engine? I know it's a rough edge example, but experience is such a great teacher. Hiring folks with less of it, does not make us better. It can't.
Our focus should not be lets teach a kid to fly a kite, it should be lets get this guy who has flown lots of kites in varied weather and operational conditions, who has some experience and wisdom to offer and lets mix that in the bowl of other ingredients we have here to make us better.
A kid fresh out of flight school is going to have a stellar safety record....Less opportunities to goof it up, so that's a plus. But, of course, less opportunities to learn and build aeronautical decision making skills.
Seems so logical....
My over-riding point is this: Lets focus harder on getting folks that have paid their dues, either in the private company ranks, or the military ranks. A dues paying member in good standing is what we want from an ALPA point of view, and to take that to the hiring realm, lets go after folks that have paid their dues and know what's what. They've earned a shot. Passing on a 23 year old instructor in favor of a 30 to 35 year old pilot with great and varied flight time is both an indicator of their commitment to the profession, and a good barometer of the experience they have had. We should be bringing in more experience, not less. We should be bringing in more knowledge, not less. We should be bringing in more maturity, not less. We should be bringing in more varied experience, not less.
If you were hiring a mechanic to work on your BMW, would you hire a mechanic that just finished hand-tool training, or would you find a guy that knows his way around a German engine? I know it's a rough edge example, but experience is such a great teacher. Hiring folks with less of it, does not make us better. It can't.
Our focus should not be lets teach a kid to fly a kite, it should be lets get this guy who has flown lots of kites in varied weather and operational conditions, who has some experience and wisdom to offer and lets mix that in the bowl of other ingredients we have here to make us better.
A kid fresh out of flight school is going to have a stellar safety record....Less opportunities to goof it up, so that's a plus. But, of course, less opportunities to learn and build aeronautical decision making skills.
Seems so logical....
That line of thinking makes no sense. Whether it's United express on the side of the plane or United, the big letters say UNITED. If I had a newbie to 121 I would rather have a very seasoned mainline united captain showing him/her the ropes rather than a 6 month upgrade captain at a regional . If something bad happens on an express flight it effect everyone at mainline. I'd rather be in more control over the situation.
Also if we were to take 76 seater on mainline today would you have a problem hiring CFI's? If you say yes then that's comical.
Also if we were to take 76 seater on mainline today would you have a problem hiring CFI's? If you say yes then that's comical.
All that time doing laps around the pattern in a Bonanza doesn’t mean jack when the PWS pops on short final, the field just closed, you have no alternate because the forecast was VFR, and you need a divert right now with gas dwindling in the tanks. A good FO already has options lined up for the Captain (or can handle himself if he’s the PF), and saw the situation materializing, planning ahead. That Bonanza driving CFI will be a puddle of goo for the next 5 minutes, and those minutes can be critical.
Last edited by Grumble; 02-12-2018 at 09:52 PM.
02-13-2018, 05:44 AM
#156
Need More Callouts
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Unbridled Enthusiasm
Posts: 2,143
That seasoned Captains job is to take that highly experienced FO, use him as a back stop for safety, and mentor them on becoming the next good seasoned Captain. His job is not to teach fundamental airmanship and how to fly a swept wing jet. The FO is there to support and backup the Captain (sometimes teach if he’s new to the airplane) not be a drag on the rest of his duties and responsibilities.
All that time doing laps around the pattern in a Bonanza doesn’t mean jack when the PWS pops on short final, the field just closed, you have no alternate because the forecast was VFR, and you need a divert right now with gas dwindling in the tanks. A good FO already has options lined up for the Captain (or can handle himself if he’s the PF), and saw the situation materializing, planning ahead. That Bonanza driving CFI will be a puddle of goo for the next 5 minutes, and those minutes can be critical.
All that time doing laps around the pattern in a Bonanza doesn’t mean jack when the PWS pops on short final, the field just closed, you have no alternate because the forecast was VFR, and you need a divert right now with gas dwindling in the tanks. A good FO already has options lined up for the Captain (or can handle himself if he’s the PF), and saw the situation materializing, planning ahead. That Bonanza driving CFI will be a puddle of goo for the next 5 minutes, and those minutes can be critical.
02-13-2018, 06:41 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 728
Well said.
That seasoned Captains job is to take that highly experienced FO, use him as a back stop for safety, and mentor them on becoming the next good seasoned Captain. His job is not to teach fundamental airmanship and how to fly a swept wing jet. The FO is there to support and backup the Captain (sometimes teach if he’s new to the airplane) not be a drag on the rest of his duties and responsibilities.
All that time doing laps around the pattern in a Bonanza doesn’t mean jack when the PWS pops on short final, the field just closed, you have no alternate because the forecast was VFR, and you need a divert right now with gas dwindling in the tanks. A good FO already has options lined up for the Captain (or can handle himself if he’s the PF), and saw the situation materializing, planning ahead. That Bonanza driving CFI will be a puddle of goo for the next 5 minutes, and those minutes can be critical.
That seasoned Captains job is to take that highly experienced FO, use him as a back stop for safety, and mentor them on becoming the next good seasoned Captain. His job is not to teach fundamental airmanship and how to fly a swept wing jet. The FO is there to support and backup the Captain (sometimes teach if he’s new to the airplane) not be a drag on the rest of his duties and responsibilities.
All that time doing laps around the pattern in a Bonanza doesn’t mean jack when the PWS pops on short final, the field just closed, you have no alternate because the forecast was VFR, and you need a divert right now with gas dwindling in the tanks. A good FO already has options lined up for the Captain (or can handle himself if he’s the PF), and saw the situation materializing, planning ahead. That Bonanza driving CFI will be a puddle of goo for the next 5 minutes, and those minutes can be critical.
And it should be that way that you were talking about, but the Regionals don't have that luxury now when hiring, and soon we won't either.
02-13-2018, 06:49 AM
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,159
I completely agree with that statement. However you guys are talking as if a time is never going to come or has come in the past where we have hired straight cfi's. It's going to happen. Why not do a test run now to see how they need to change the training to accommodate this.
And it should be that way that you were talking about, but the Regionals don't have that luxury now when hiring, and soon we won't either.
And it should be that way that you were talking about, but the Regionals don't have that luxury now when hiring, and soon we won't either.
ALPA has fought hard to raise and then to keep hiring standards in place for safety purposes. The traveling public, and even airline management's have bought in. The public bought into it because it made sense and because it's their butts are in the seats. Management bought in because of their safety risk analysis and their stock options.
So, lets hold the line in solidarity and in unity that we should hire the best we can get for as long as we can get em......
logical no?
Side Bar Opinion: If we can hire pilots that have been paying union dues for the advancement of their careers we should look hard at them. I like the idea of hiring an ALPA member, or other union member. It builds solidarity and it will help come negotiation time. These folks already "get it" so to speak so their half-wing learning curve will be allot easier in my opinion.
02-13-2018, 06:53 AM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 728
I wouldn't hire a CFI to fly a kite necessarily. It's not comical. Why would you want to hire a recent CFI when there are lots of pilots out there with tons of great experience. I wouldn't be going after more inexperienced pilots until the pool of experienced pilots got very low. Had a guy on my jump seat, regional guy, 10,000 hours. He's submitting apps all over the place. No way I hire a CFI until people like him don't exist and aren't hunting for jobs.
But, if we are hiring into an entry level airplane, and that entry level plane is a 76 seat aircraft and we're hiring the best we can find, and the best we can find is a CFI only, then fine, hire that person. Why? Because that's the best we can find. Maybe our training and IOE footprint needs to look different at that time to bring the reality of the situation into focus.
Perhaps the right question to contemplate is this: Are we currently hiring the best candidates out there in the current market conditions? I see lots of qualified pilots out there for likely the next 2 to 4 years.
But, if we are hiring into an entry level airplane, and that entry level plane is a 76 seat aircraft and we're hiring the best we can find, and the best we can find is a CFI only, then fine, hire that person. Why? Because that's the best we can find. Maybe our training and IOE footprint needs to look different at that time to bring the reality of the situation into focus.
Perhaps the right question to contemplate is this: Are we currently hiring the best candidates out there in the current market conditions? I see lots of qualified pilots out there for likely the next 2 to 4 years.
02-13-2018, 07:23 AM
#160
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 72
You guys are infuriating in your lack of continuity and logic.
A seasoned mainline captain shouldn't have to teach, but RJ captains don't have enough experience. Mentoring is in the CA job description in the FOM, I believe. Are you saying that RJ captains are more capable captains than you? Because that's what it sounds like.
We fly into DCA once a trip, RJs do it twice a day, but it's harder and more important when we do it because the airplane has more seats. The RJ guys that did 5 legs yesterday flew more pax than I did in 2.
Said RJ guys are both 25 years old, mature enough to fly 250 pax over 5 flights, but not mature enough to fly 210 over 2 flights.
You sound like old people telling their grandkids about walking up hill in the snow both ways. You have to go fly 135 solo at night IMC with only 3 working instruments cause that's what I had to do. A lot of posters here are so far removed from the RJ level and its pilots that they are not qualified to comment on it.
That said, I agree that current RJ/military/corp pilots should get first shot, not because they are better or worse pilots than a CFI, but because they paid their dues and deserve first shot at the fantastic job they worked so hard for.
A seasoned mainline captain shouldn't have to teach, but RJ captains don't have enough experience. Mentoring is in the CA job description in the FOM, I believe. Are you saying that RJ captains are more capable captains than you? Because that's what it sounds like.
We fly into DCA once a trip, RJs do it twice a day, but it's harder and more important when we do it because the airplane has more seats. The RJ guys that did 5 legs yesterday flew more pax than I did in 2.
Said RJ guys are both 25 years old, mature enough to fly 250 pax over 5 flights, but not mature enough to fly 210 over 2 flights.
You sound like old people telling their grandkids about walking up hill in the snow both ways. You have to go fly 135 solo at night IMC with only 3 working instruments cause that's what I had to do. A lot of posters here are so far removed from the RJ level and its pilots that they are not qualified to comment on it.
That said, I agree that current RJ/military/corp pilots should get first shot, not because they are better or worse pilots than a CFI, but because they paid their dues and deserve first shot at the fantastic job they worked so hard for.
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