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Originally Posted by horrido27
(Post 3063179)
Guess this one would be a question for both ALPA Legal but also a civilian labor attorney. Can they give you an Intent to Furlough notice 4 months out? 6 months out? Is there a time frame on the back end like there is on the front end? |
Originally Posted by horrido27
(Post 3063169)
I guess that's where again I'm confused.
If you have a 2008 B756 FO who is now displaced to A320 FO and You have a 2013 B737 Capt who is now displaced to A320 FO and You have a 2016 B787 FO who is now displaced to A320 FO and lastly, You have a 2017 A320 Capt who is now displaced to A320 FO... I would assume AND EXPECT that the 2017 A320 Capt have to go through training first. Followed by the 2016 hire, etc. Yes, I'm aware of the Pay Protection but there is also something more than pay at stake. Quality of Life. Pretty sure that 2008 hire has earned the right to be home a lot during the summer... same with the 2013 hire vs the 2017 hire. Just as bad is if they send the 2008 756 FO to training yet there are 2010-2019 756 FO's who do NOT go to training. Guess we will see what the training schedule looks like at the end of this week? But.. One thing that hit me and again, I had to laugh.. and not a good laugh- "However, we will deviate from inverse seniority order if there is a business reason for doing so. Examples include: - a pilot is NQ on his old equipment - to fill open training slots – for example, a qual slot is open but the junior pilot needs an RQ2 - we expect a more junior pilot to be displaced in a subsequent displacement bid" Notice that first line.. a pilot if NQ'd on his old equipment. So the company cancels your sim event (which is paid for, by the way.. so no money saved.) and now THEY can use that as an excuse to train out of seniority. Hmm... Motch That 2017 hire CA is likely not getting trained first... if at all. They don't "have to" follow inverse seniority for training assignments, and almost certainly won't. The company is going to train the pilots that they expect NOT to furlough, and focus on filling the NB F/O slots first. The section 8-F pay protection penalties applied on a pilot for pilot are a minor expense compared to savings gained by speed in this large reduction in forces plan. They are clearly trying to make up for any 8-F losses with advantages of getting the displacements and furloughs done faster. The company has not announced furlough numbers or a plan yet, but this displacement and the next are clearly designed to support a specific plan they have mapped out. The unknown to line pilots is what that initial cutoff number is going to be, and I expect we will find out later in June. A displaced pilot going to a NB F/O category should expect the company to train him or her ASAP if they are not on an Extended E-SRL.. The company is clearly opting for speed rather the precision in this process. Sometimes the price of the penalty is not enough to outweigh the potential advantages of not following the rule. SP |
Originally Posted by horrido27
(Post 3063179)
Lee.. I'm still breathing! LOL.. thanks.
Trying to figure stuff out as a few junior people have been reaching out. Just for 'opinions'. But you bring up something that I still can't wrap my head around. Intent to Furlough announcement this week or before the next DB. Guess this one would be a question for both ALPA Legal but also a civilian labor attorney. Can they give you an Intent to Furlough notice 4 months out? 6 months out? Is there a time frame on the back end like there is on the front end? Having received a furlough notice before (Continental), I do recall it was 2 or so months out. Ya think they would send out ItF letters out this week? I also ran across this,- https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.c...e/nj-warn-act/ Seems all EWR Pilots would require 90 days notice. Hmm.. but would you do 120+ days notice? Be well.. sun coming up and time to go outside before the NASCAR Race later~ Always Motch section 7-A-1 says that they have to give at least 30, but not more than 120 days notice. The company can make a general statement that they will most likely have to furlough X number of pilots whenever they want to, but the official notification to the actual employee is what counts and is listed above. Basically, anyone on the list as of 1/23/16 has to be notified between 90-120 days. People hired after that date can be notified 30-120 days out. June 3rd is 120 days prior to October 1, so any time after that is fair game for the official notification. |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 3063186)
People hired after that date can be notified 30-120 days out.
There's the Federal WARN act, for example, that requires 60 days as well as various state laws that apply for advance notice depending on domicile. (Unfortunately, I am aware of these non-UPA factors from previous experience.) |
Originally Posted by Itsajob
(Post 3063186)
section 1-I says that no pilot on the seniority list as of 1/23/16 can be furloughed with less than 90 days advanced written notice.
section 7-A-1 says that they have to give at least 30, but not more than 120 days notice. The company can make a general statement that they will most likely have to furlough X number of pilots whenever they want to, but the official notification to the actual employee is what counts and is listed above. Basically, anyone on the list as of 1/23/16 has to be notified between 90-120 days. People hired after that date can be notified 30-120 days out. June 3rd is 120 days prior to October 1, so any time after that is fair game for the official notification. Practically the company will not notify the senior pilots hired prior to Jan 2016 that they are being furloughed before they announce it to the pilots junior to them. That basically creates a window of 90-120 days, which is the start of June to the end of June if they are targeting October 1st. I believe the furlough announcement will closely follow the next displacement bid award later in June, but as Lee pointed out they could pull the trigger on the announcement at the 120 day mark. SP |
Originally Posted by cadetdrivr
(Post 3063191)
Not quite. I assume Motch is referring to notification requirements other than the UPA. ;)
There's the Federal WARN act, for example, that requires 60 days as well as various state laws that apply for advance notice depending on domicile. (Unfortunately, I am aware of these non-UPA factors from previous experience.) |
I think we have pilots on here hired in every year. So why don’t we keep track of the hire dates of the pilots getting trained?
if you are a 2015/2016 hire and get a Qual or transition class post here because that might give us the insight we all desperately want. |
Originally Posted by 89Pistons
(Post 3063197)
The WARN Act notification does not exceed 120 days in any state. UAL will comply with the Act for all pilots who are given a furlough notice if Act exceeds the minimum notification time referenced in our contract.
But for some of us at UAL, 120 days is greater than the WARN Act. Historically the company will send more furlough notices than actual furloughs, and it seems quite likely that their number of furlough notices will require them giving 120 day notices to the more senior folks getting furloughed. So it seems possible that all XXXX furlough notices go out at the 120 day mark. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by globetruck
(Post 3063250)
But for some of us at UAL, 120 days is greater than the WARN Act. Historically the company will send more furlough notices than actual furloughs, and it seems quite likely that their number of furlough notices will require them giving 120 day notices to the more senior folks getting furloughed. So it seems possible that all XXXX furlough notices go out at the 120 day mark.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Add for clarification that the "they will send out exactly the number of notifications they intend to furlough" comment was in reference to a furlough round. Not the overall total. |
Some 777 FOs have reported they have early June classes for NB initial. The ones I know are not in immediate threat range of being furloughed.
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