baseball

So Jimmy Carter's Airline Deregulation Act never happened right?

The single piece of legislation that put the industry back 40 years and caused major strife within the ranks of labor due to the ensuing strikes of the early 80's.

Every time we think of what this profession could have been and should have been we can thank the big Democrat Jimmy Carter. It's amazing that we even have a profession after that reign of terror. Just look at what he did to ALPA.

Oletimer

That is accurate. Jimmy Carter thought he could put government pressure on top of airline management to break up their monopolies over routes, and gate slots. He thought the government mandates of taking away slots and routes would allow other airlines to come in and compete and bring down air fare. What he didn't understand that cut-throat management teams were going to use their powers to institutionalize economic canabalism amongst it's higher paid employees; the pilots.

What developed was a government sanctioned war on dues paying ALPA members. The CAL strike of 83 and UAL strike of 85 would not have happened had it not been for Carter and his DRA of 78. The decert of ALPA alone should be enough evidence that Carter's legislation was a government sanctioned war on the profession, to include organized labor and dues paying members of ALPA.

When I see Biden, I see Carter. I don't see any difference between the two men. Both don't understand foreign policy, domestic policy, nor business matters.

Barney

This. Back to it.....this is a fun topic. Guessing the order is 100-150 Max (to go with the 100 orders we already have), 100 Airbus NEOs (we already have an order for 45 321 XLRs), 50 787s, 25 777x. The GE 777 fix is a year away, and when they return you have a 20-25 year old airframe that has sat a year. Maybe Boeing threw them a bone to get orders of the 777X going.

I doubt SK will bring in a NSNB at this time as we still have a lot of parked Buses. Might be thinking long term: international market share, retiring older NBs.

guppie

Ronnie "fire em all" Reagan schooled Lorenzo and Ferris on how to handle those pesky unions when he fired the striking controllers. Talk about a lost decade! Jeez-um. The Reagan area was disastrous for labor. And not just airline labor. But we don't have to argue. Just continue to enjoy our 2012/2016 Obama era contract.... and look forward to Contract 2022.... Ridin with Biden. Watch and see.

Oletimer

Government employees do not have the right to strike against the government. It's the law. Reagan warned them. He tried to put them on the right path.
We've been trying to "take it back" ever since Jimmy Carter put a gun to our heads and actually pulled the trigger. Every contractual "take back" was the result of years of negotiating "incrementally."

Clueless Joe, Dumb old man Joe, Goofy Joe. Joe don't know. Whatever you want to call him, he's been in government for 40 years. Where was he in 1978 when his good buddy Jimmy Carter killed the airline profession? Joe doesn't care about airline pilots. He wants to kill us with his onerous tax policy. We may get a 10% pay raise, but we'll get a 25% increase in taxes. Ridin with Bidin is just dumb. Go back and learn about his pappy, Jimmy Carter. No difference. Wait for Putin to come and pick Joe's pocket. Iran, NK, Russia, China. They all love a democrat in office. Why? Weakness abroad. Weak foreign policy.

it's all about socialism and high taxes. Ridin with dummie Bidin....Ok, you can do that by yourself. Jimmy Carter a democrat killed this profession. Why do we need to take it back for the last 40 years? Why? Because democrats put their nose where it doesn't belong. They don't understand commerce. NAFTA...Lets talk about that. Come on, cat got your tongue?

WhistlePig

You’re not wrong. But, without deregulation 60% of us would be selling shoes or life insurance instead of flying airplanes for a living. Regarding what Jimmy Carter did to ALPA, remind me? I’ve read Flying the Line and the Reagan years were much more detrimental to this profession than Carter’s term.

Oletimer

If you look at the history of the Deregulation Act, Jimmy Carter bowed down to consumer pressure for lower airfares. Instead of mandating maximum air fare prices per route, Jimmy Carter thought he could break the airlines pricing power another way. Instead of limiting revenues or price capping, he decided to take away slots and routes. If you read the educational material in various aviation management curricula, and the countless studies, it shows that management teams didn't take the path that the Carter Administration predicted in terms of out-bidding the competition to lower air fare. Instead they cannibalized their labor and put downward pressure on labor; pilots, cabin crew, ground staff, engineers/mechanics, etc).

to be fair, Carter never anticipated Frank Lorenzo's extreme penchant for buy-divide-subdivide-bankrupt-re-combine-re-emerge creative and abusive management schemes. But, Lorenzo was born out of the Deregulation Act, and his actions is what led to the decertificaiton of ALPA in 1983 at CAL. and Richard Ferris strike at UAL in 1985. It takes a few years for legislation to be funneled through the markets and the courts. But, by the mid 1980's, Carter's legislation started the race to the bottom for professional airline pilots. Pilots have lost over 40% of their buying power ever since. We all know how many of us have lost their retirements since then, but it all started with Carter. He just didn't understand pilot labor contracts, and how the RLA would be used against us, and he didn't understand how bankruptcy courts would be also used against pilot unions. He was just blinded by the promise of lower airfares to the voters. He promised lower airfares. He kept his promise, but the effects were temporary.

Now, through all the many years of downard pressure in the industry, we're in a pilot shortage. Why? Because the profession has sucked for 30 plus years. It sucked thanks to Carter. It sucked because of Carter. Had it not been for the DRA of 78, this profession would be paying physicians pay or high end attorney pay. You never really take it back. The intrinsic value of a dollar is more valuable than a pilot really ever knows.

Congrats to the current crop of new hires. They should have a great and profitable career, barring any more democratic socialist legislation or onerous income tax hikes.

It's really about 2 major things: your buying power and the value of your retirement dollars. Carter really hurt those 2 numbers for pilots in the business from 1978 to 2013. We've been digging out ever since. A democrat leaning NMB is all we really need. Other than that, I prefer a robust economy whereby leisure and business travelers have excess dollars to buy full fare first class tickets. Bring back the magic!

worstpilotever

So let me get this straight, you guys want government to regulate business? Or just the business you are in?

baseball

Supply and demand would have brought on natural hiring of pilots just as it is doing today. 60% of pilots wouldn't be selling shoes. At least not at the legacy carriers. 100% of the discount carrier pilots and LCC would though because the DRA gave birth to those airlines. Without the DRA, SWA would not exist. That is well documented.

A good article by the Chicago Tribune, which is a left leaning paper: "The biggest factor was the emergence of a consensus among experts that the regulation was fundamentally malignant.." The article "why did deregulation happen." Was published there in 1985. I thought it was rather interesting to learn the CAB had been providing government subsidies to unprofitable routes. This was artificially propping up unprofitable routes. it was essentially an airline economy built upon a house of cards. The subsides were not passed on to consumers via any type of ticket savings. "' The greatest achievement of deregulation may not be to foster a freer and more productive economy, but to reaffirm the power of ideas."

The various courts, both democrat, and republican have rulings on everything from seniority to bankruptcy as a result of the DRA of 78. Without the act, none of the chaos of the 80's needed to or would have happened. Reagan didn't do anything to the airline business. if Carter shot us in the chest in 78, what the heck could Reagan do to us in the 80's, other than put us on life support and wait for organ donors. All of those circuit court and appeals court judges in place in the 80's had been in their seats since the 60's.

Acts of congress, signed by a President have consequences. You either blame one, or the other, or both branches of government. But the third branch, the judiciary, the courts is a hard one to blame since they are a conglomeration of various generations of jurisprudence and precedent.

Oletimer

I am just keeping it simple now in my old age.

We know we gotta pay unto Ceasar what is due Caesar. That implies a certain degree of reasonable regulation regarding commerce and taxation.

In simple terms. I want to gently and lovingly strangle the goose that is laying the golden eggs without pulling any feathers from her or hurting her. I want those golden eggs to multiply greatly in my savings and retirement plans.