Current QOL at UA
10-03-2022, 09:29 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 537
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Hate to be a Debbie downer here but:
Talking to friends at SWA and AA and DL, I would say we have one of the worst scheduling contracts of any of them.
1) It's not easy to drop trips, or trade, even if you are senior. Our work rules for trading doesn't have the flexibility of other companies. I have a buddy who's a newhire at AA that I talk to and he tells me he's got 2 weeks off without vacation(as a NB FO), I don't see that happening here.
2) Lines are close to 89 hr lines prior to the Sept pull back, so while you might get a reprieve here in Oct, Nov/Dec will be busy. Jan/Feb will draw down, then Mar will be busy, then Apr/May draw down then Jun-Sep will be busy.
Management is on record that they won't "draw down" the way I have described above. The draw downs are typical of our company and the UAL NEXT plan says we will be busy year round.
3) Reserve sux everywhere, especially if you commute. If you get 777/787 as a newhire you will be on reserve for 2 years, almost guaranteed, unless you decide to upgrade to NB CA at the end of year 1, then will be on reserve as a NB CA for another 2 years. If you live in base and don't like to fly, this might be awesome.
If you are commuting to reserve, you will spend a lot of time watching Netflix in your crashpad. With the pullback we just did in Sept, management pushed reserve percentages which are typically 80-100% in base to a much higher level
None of these are direct comparisons. You can never apply an apples-apples comparisons on work rules even though we try. I'd say that here at United, you will benefit from rapid growth and a quicker CA upgrade then our competition in this point in time. With the amount of growth we have right now, you will struggle for about a year for QOL, but will probably (assuming we grow as anticipated) gain so much seniority that you will gain any QOL back within a year or two. If the TA fails and we stop growth mode and stagnate, I expect that this is one of worst places for QOL as a junior guy.
Talking to friends at SWA and AA and DL, I would say we have one of the worst scheduling contracts of any of them.
1) It's not easy to drop trips, or trade, even if you are senior. Our work rules for trading doesn't have the flexibility of other companies. I have a buddy who's a newhire at AA that I talk to and he tells me he's got 2 weeks off without vacation(as a NB FO), I don't see that happening here.
2) Lines are close to 89 hr lines prior to the Sept pull back, so while you might get a reprieve here in Oct, Nov/Dec will be busy. Jan/Feb will draw down, then Mar will be busy, then Apr/May draw down then Jun-Sep will be busy.
Management is on record that they won't "draw down" the way I have described above. The draw downs are typical of our company and the UAL NEXT plan says we will be busy year round.
3) Reserve sux everywhere, especially if you commute. If you get 777/787 as a newhire you will be on reserve for 2 years, almost guaranteed, unless you decide to upgrade to NB CA at the end of year 1, then will be on reserve as a NB CA for another 2 years. If you live in base and don't like to fly, this might be awesome.
If you are commuting to reserve, you will spend a lot of time watching Netflix in your crashpad. With the pullback we just did in Sept, management pushed reserve percentages which are typically 80-100% in base to a much higher level
None of these are direct comparisons. You can never apply an apples-apples comparisons on work rules even though we try. I'd say that here at United, you will benefit from rapid growth and a quicker CA upgrade then our competition in this point in time. With the amount of growth we have right now, you will struggle for about a year for QOL, but will probably (assuming we grow as anticipated) gain so much seniority that you will gain any QOL back within a year or two. If the TA fails and we stop growth mode and stagnate, I expect that this is one of worst places for QOL as a junior guy.
AA is even worse. Despite what you hear from a few pro company guys online trip drops are nearly impossible. We have a green/red/redder system. Almost everything is perpetually red which means you can't drop and can only swap for something deemed "redder." Our lines are generally built to the upper end of the line credit window (high 80s). Reassignments are rampant. The number of 4 and 5 day trips is through the roof. Domestic QOL is similar to the regionals. Time to hold a line on the 777 or 787 is probably around 17 years or more. The WB fleet has been shrinking and is now roughly half the size of UAL's WB fleet. Our negotiated AIPs (agreements in principle) are full of concessions. The union is asking for 12% (DOS), 5% (DOS +1), 2%(DOS +2) with a $60 million dollar signing bonus (roughly 4k/pilot). We are asking for something like 12% retro back to April 1, 2022. I'm seriously starting to wonder if our NC/reps are being incentivized by mgt to deliver a turd.
10-03-2022, 12:38 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by AAL24
AA is even worse. Despite what you hear from a few pro company guys online trip drops are nearly impossible. We have a green/red/redder system. Almost everything is perpetually red which means you can't drop and can only swap for something deemed "redder." Our lines are generally built to the upper end of the line credit window (high 80s). Reassignments are rampant. The number of 4 and 5 day trips is through the roof. Domestic QOL is similar to the regionals. Time to hold a line on the 777 or 787 is probably around 17 years or more. The WB fleet has been shrinking and is now roughly half the size of UAL's WB fleet. Our negotiated AIPs (agreements in principle) are full of concessions. The union is asking for 12% (DOS), 5% (DOS +1), 2%(DOS +2) with a $60 million dollar signing bonus (roughly 4k/pilot). We are asking for something like 12% retro back to April 1, 2022. I'm seriously starting to wonder if our NC/reps are being incentivized by mgt to deliver a turd.
10-03-2022, 03:06 PM
#13
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Position: 756 Left Side
Posts: 1,629
Keep in mind, 5:20 per day solves this problem.
Lineholder could only get a max of 16 days on the job... (5:20 x 16 = 85:20 hrs) and a reserve should also get 5:20 per day, so all of a sudden you see lines with 14 days off (as a min).
Not negoiating in public but I put this down on the survey years ago. Aircraft are getting faster. a 3 day LHR now pays 15:00. But if could (should) pay 16:00. Where now you could potential get 6 LHR trips in a month (18 days on, 12/13 days off) at 90hrs, you could/should be looking at 5 as a max and 80hrs of pay, on 15 days and off 15/16.
It's how you skin the cat (sorry PETA)
Always
Motch
Lineholder could only get a max of 16 days on the job... (5:20 x 16 = 85:20 hrs) and a reserve should also get 5:20 per day, so all of a sudden you see lines with 14 days off (as a min).
Not negoiating in public but I put this down on the survey years ago. Aircraft are getting faster. a 3 day LHR now pays 15:00. But if could (should) pay 16:00. Where now you could potential get 6 LHR trips in a month (18 days on, 12/13 days off) at 90hrs, you could/should be looking at 5 as a max and 80hrs of pay, on 15 days and off 15/16.
It's how you skin the cat (sorry PETA)
Always
Motch
10-04-2022, 01:44 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 38
How long does it take to hold a line on 756 and 777 @UA? I got a CJO from UA and SWA. From the info I gathered, it takes years to hold a line on WB on a non coastal base. QOL in reserve looks limited. The few guys I know at UA who joined recently are happy but they all live in Base which makes a big difference. I also hear complains of guys on WB who do not break above monthly guarantee as they are on the low end of the seniority scale. That is just some information i gathered...
10-04-2022, 02:09 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Airbus 320 Right Seat
Posts: 1,440
Originally Posted by WeiserTraffic
I’m in the same exact position. Currently commuting for an LCC and QOL is pretty good re: days off and ability to drop swap and trade. That said, I live in a UAL domicile and it’s impossible to ignore the opportunity that exists right now. My goal being QOL over pay, I’m wondering what the switch to UAL would look like in terms of timeframe to be able to control/rearrange trips and days off.
I left JB after 5 years in 2017, Florida commuter which is tough . Don’t regret a thing ,however both good companies .
10-04-2022, 04:02 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,898
Originally Posted by MagicGoose
How long does it take to hold a line on 756 and 777 @UA? I got a CJO from UA and SWA. From the info I gathered, it takes years to hold a line on WB on a non coastal base. QOL in reserve looks limited. The few guys I know at UA who joined recently are happy but they all live in Base which makes a big difference. I also hear complains of guys on WB who do not break above monthly guarantee as they are on the low end of the seniority scale. That is just some information i gathered...
10-04-2022, 04:13 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Originally Posted by MagicGoose
How long does it take to hold a line on 756 and 777 @UA? I got a CJO from UA and SWA. From the info I gathered, it takes years to hold a line on WB on a non coastal base. QOL in reserve looks limited. The few guys I know at UA who joined recently are happy but they all live in Base which makes a big difference. I also hear complains of guys on WB who do not break above monthly guarantee as they are on the low end of the seniority scale. That is just some information i gathered...
10-04-2022, 05:10 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by MagicGoose
How long does it take to hold a line on 756 and 777 @UA? I got a CJO from UA and SWA. From the info I gathered, it takes years to hold a line on WB on a non coastal base. QOL in reserve looks limited. The few guys I know at UA who joined recently are happy but they all live in Base which makes a big difference. I also hear complains of guys on WB who do not break above monthly guarantee as they are on the low end of the seniority scale. That is just some information i gathered...
Southwest is like a regional airline flying 737s. If you want to compare what they do to your QOL at UAL, look at what is going on in only our narrowbody fleets. I just flew with a new F/O who is already a lineholder after 6 months on the 73.
I am just past my third year and hold captain on the 73. I have buddies at Southwest who won't hold captain for a decade.
Now if you want to bring the widebodies into consideration, that's something that you will never have a chance to fly at Southwest. The one thing that United has an advantage over Southwest is the flexibility you have to go to different seats, different types of equipment, and see what works best for you. I don't know how long you have left in your aviation career but 20 or 30 years of just flying the Guppy doesn't sound like much fun, and I am a captain on it and enjoy it.
I don't plan on being a captain on it my whole career.
As an aside, I came over from the 756 fleet and was holding a line at about 1.5 years seniority. I know that has come down a bit recently, but our G line (guarantee of being a lineholder unless you bid reserve) does go up and down monthly depending on what flying is allocated month to month.
10-04-2022, 05:58 AM
#19
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Position: Captain 320
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by Zoomie
Hate to be a Debbie downer here but:
Talking to friends at SWA and AA and DL, I would say we have one of the worst scheduling contracts of any of them.
1) It's not easy to drop trips, or trade, even if you are senior. Our work rules for trading doesn't have the flexibility of other companies. I have a buddy who's a newhire at AA that I talk to and he tells me he's got 2 weeks off without vacation(as a NB FO), I don't see that happening here.
2) Lines are close to 89 hr lines prior to the Sept pull back, so while you might get a reprieve here in Oct, Nov/Dec will be busy. Jan/Feb will draw down, then Mar will be busy, then Apr/May draw down then Jun-Sep will be busy.
Management is on record that they won't "draw down" the way I have described above. The draw downs are typical of our company and the UAL NEXT plan says we will be busy year round.
3) Reserve sux everywhere, especially if you commute. If you get 777/787 as a newhire you will be on reserve for 2 years, almost guaranteed, unless you decide to upgrade to NB CA at the end of year 1, then will be on reserve as a NB CA for another 2 years. If you live in base and don't like to fly, this might be awesome.
If you are commuting to reserve, you will spend a lot of time watching Netflix in your crashpad. With the pullback we just did in Sept, management pushed reserve percentages which are typically 80-100% in base to a much higher level
None of these are direct comparisons. You can never apply an apples-apples comparisons on work rules even though we try. I'd say that here at United, you will benefit from rapid growth and a quicker CA upgrade then our competition in this point in time. With the amount of growth we have right now, you will struggle for about a year for QOL, but will probably (assuming we grow as anticipated) gain so much seniority that you will gain any QOL back within a year or two. If the TA fails and we stop growth mode and stagnate, I expect that this is one of worst places for QOL as a junior guy.
Talking to friends at SWA and AA and DL, I would say we have one of the worst scheduling contracts of any of them.
1) It's not easy to drop trips, or trade, even if you are senior. Our work rules for trading doesn't have the flexibility of other companies. I have a buddy who's a newhire at AA that I talk to and he tells me he's got 2 weeks off without vacation(as a NB FO), I don't see that happening here.
2) Lines are close to 89 hr lines prior to the Sept pull back, so while you might get a reprieve here in Oct, Nov/Dec will be busy. Jan/Feb will draw down, then Mar will be busy, then Apr/May draw down then Jun-Sep will be busy.
Management is on record that they won't "draw down" the way I have described above. The draw downs are typical of our company and the UAL NEXT plan says we will be busy year round.
3) Reserve sux everywhere, especially if you commute. If you get 777/787 as a newhire you will be on reserve for 2 years, almost guaranteed, unless you decide to upgrade to NB CA at the end of year 1, then will be on reserve as a NB CA for another 2 years. If you live in base and don't like to fly, this might be awesome.
If you are commuting to reserve, you will spend a lot of time watching Netflix in your crashpad. With the pullback we just did in Sept, management pushed reserve percentages which are typically 80-100% in base to a much higher level
None of these are direct comparisons. You can never apply an apples-apples comparisons on work rules even though we try. I'd say that here at United, you will benefit from rapid growth and a quicker CA upgrade then our competition in this point in time. With the amount of growth we have right now, you will struggle for about a year for QOL, but will probably (assuming we grow as anticipated) gain so much seniority that you will gain any QOL back within a year or two. If the TA fails and we stop growth mode and stagnate, I expect that this is one of worst places for QOL as a junior guy.
The proposed scheduling section in the contract the negotiating comm just published is even worse.
10-04-2022, 07:32 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by That Guy 74
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Southwest is like a regional airline flying 737s. If you want to compare what they do to your QOL at UAL, look at what is going on in only our narrowbody fleets. I just flew with a new F/O who is already a lineholder after 6 months on the 73.
I am just past my third year and hold captain on the 73. I have buddies at Southwest who won't hold captain for a decade.
Now if you want to bring the widebodies into consideration, that's something that you will never have a chance to fly at Southwest. The one thing that United has an advantage over Southwest is the flexibility you have to go to different seats, different types of equipment, and see what works best for you. I don't know how long you have left in your aviation career but 20 or 30 years of just flying the Guppy doesn't sound like much fun, and I am a captain on it and enjoy it.
I don't plan on being a captain on it my whole career.
As an aside, I came over from the 756 fleet and was holding a line at about 1.5 years seniority. I know that has come down a bit recently, but our G line (guarantee of being a lineholder unless you bid reserve) does go up and down monthly depending on what flying is allocated month to month.
Southwest is like a regional airline flying 737s. If you want to compare what they do to your QOL at UAL, look at what is going on in only our narrowbody fleets. I just flew with a new F/O who is already a lineholder after 6 months on the 73.
I am just past my third year and hold captain on the 73. I have buddies at Southwest who won't hold captain for a decade.
Now if you want to bring the widebodies into consideration, that's something that you will never have a chance to fly at Southwest. The one thing that United has an advantage over Southwest is the flexibility you have to go to different seats, different types of equipment, and see what works best for you. I don't know how long you have left in your aviation career but 20 or 30 years of just flying the Guppy doesn't sound like much fun, and I am a captain on it and enjoy it.
I don't plan on being a captain on it my whole career.
As an aside, I came over from the 756 fleet and was holding a line at about 1.5 years seniority. I know that has come down a bit recently, but our G line (guarantee of being a lineholder unless you bid reserve) does go up and down monthly depending on what flying is allocated month to month.
Thanks for your answer. Great info. I’ve been flying B777 for a foreign major past 7 years so I was curious about the overall QOL @UA before making a final decision. Equipment does not matter to me anymore. Max days off with the family, flexibility over bidding and money is what I’am after. All the threads have been very helpful to make a decision between those options. Cheers
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