Catch 22-
We might not be in a time crunch to agree to just anything,
but are you, I and the rest of this group going to just "hope" we get a deal next year?
When next year comes along and something happens to our CEO, Union Chair, etc.. do we just wait another 6 months?
At what point is-
Enough is Enough

Cleaning up this weekend and came across my old Continental Contract, from 2002.
Sect 14- Sick Leave
A pilot will accrue 5 hours each bid period
When is Enough Is Enough

21+ years and no change?!

If we go into Mediation it isn't because of the Union, its because of one and ONLY one individual. He gambled- he lost.
As far as "What Mediation Brings-"
It shows a failure of this management team.
THEY love their PR.
Boom Jet
SAP Fuel
Diversity in Hiring, especially at Aviate
They want the good PR to make the public LOVE our airline.
Maybe they wont be so happy with the Negative PR that comes from requesting Mediation.

None of us WANT Mediation. We WANT, and DESERVE is a Fair and Honest Contract (ILC23) that rewards this pilot group for the Pain & Suffering they sacrificed over the last 20+ years AND to take the next step TOWARDS United Next.
But that won't happen without happy, unstressed Pilots.

Motch

Motch,
You're right enough is enough. I met you at the info picket in EWR and firmly agree with you even though I'm from the other side... doesn't really matter anymore, we are all United now!!. I go to work and do my job, nothing more nothing less. 20 years is a lot of time to make up for, I hope the new guys understand this going forward...

I’m not arguing any of this, but we did just start over. We’ve never gone this long without an agreement, but we also had a pandemic that had a huge impact on our industry coupled with a lame MEC. We’ve started over and these guys seem to be doing what we pay them to do. We can file for mediation and have a strike vote any time we want, but as long as both parties are meeting frequently and negotiating in good faith, mediation won’t accomplish much. We need to stop looking at this as our contract has been amendable since 2019, but rather we just started over with a new bar set by Delta. Our New MEC hasn’t been at it long. If negotiations break down, I believe that this MEC will be quick to file for mediation. Until then we need to remain active, but give them time to work. Expecting this to follow personal timelines or happen quickly is about like standing in the desert and shouting “rain damn you!”. It might make people feel good to vent, but it won’t accomplish much.

Truth!

Why in the world would a Mediator even agree to take this negotiation? What would they DO when we are making steady progress? If my understanding is accurate, once in mediation our negotiation schedule belongs to the Mediator? How long until one is assigned, briefed on the current status and ready to set a schedule? Mediation may well be necessary but right now it's not a sword we should be swinging. Let this team do their job, follow the comms, demonstrate unity in the ways they ask, get smart on the process, talk (on the phone or in person) to your reps, and mentor those pilots who aren't as connected.

Just be smart.

I agree, every update seems to be progress is being made and they are meeting weekly….mediator wouldn’t do anything until things break down

And so the company would just keep making sure there is small progress here and there. Makes us feel good and buys the company more time to drag this on into 2024.

just wondering-
what is your date for when things break down and how do you define “break down”?

Our own union has stated Picketing on 12 May..
Is that a date for Mediation request?

I define it as when union days nothings happening and we’ve hit an impasse. The first thing a mediator will assess is what progress is being made and how often are they meeting .

My gut feeling is the union is going through every section with a fine tooth comb trying to find improvements, they aren’t rushing. A mediator doesn’t mean a silver bullet for either side

We aren’t at the table, so we really don’t know what is going on behind closed doors. I don’t know how any of us without knowledge of what is actually going on at the table could define an appropriate date that negotiations should be concluded, or state that it is time for mediation. We seem to have good people in place now and we are going to have to trust them and let them do their job. When they say that it’s time, then we go down that road. Until then we continue informational picketing and the company can try to figure out how to fill vacancies under our current contract.

It starts the clock.

You can't have a strike vote without being in mediation if you want to be taken seriously. (Their CEO laughed at them for it, the mediator did not) our CEO would laugh at us for having a strike vote without being in mediation. It's just legal procedure.

Ask the Delta guys why they got their contract. They followed the RLA, UALPA has not and we are that far behind because of it.

I hope the "New MEC" can pull a rabbit out of the hat but they should use the legal procedures available to them to force the issue.

Delta negotiations had also stalled from what I remember. If that was the case, then filing for mediation was warranted. That is not the case with us. Both parties are meeting frequently and evidently negotiating in good faith. The RLA is a slow process, and considering that we just started over with a new team, I’d say that things are moving along pretty quick. This needs to be done correctly, not necessarily quickly. Just like fast hands in the cockpit creates problems, placing the emphasis on speed in negotiations does the same thing.

Our new MEC is using the legal procedures available to them. If negotiations reach an impasse, we will then file for mediation and potentially have a strike vote.

I was under the same impression and checked with my LEC reps. The answer was that even if we enter mediation, ALPA and the company can continue to meet without the mediator being present.

That being said though, I agree that the mediator would not make our case a priority until progress slowed significantly. Certainly not while the NC updates are somewhat positive and reporting that things are trending in the right direction.

I'm as frustrated as anyone else and suspect that we are headed for mediation. But I think we've just started playing the game for real in the past few months and our timeline with the NMB would reflect that.

I think there's validity to the argument that requesting mediation now starts the clock. But I also think that the mediation request (like a strike vote) has to be timed to maximize leverage and visibility. We get one shot at each so it has to count. Heading into the summer season would probably make more of an impact than doing it now.

IMO, when Delta got their TA and Kirby announced publicly they wouldn't respond to our negotiations until he saw if that passed or failed, that was the day our MEC should have filed for mediation.

It doesn't matter if theirs passed or failed, if it passed, that was the floor, if it failed, the floor was going to be higher. (It would have been a deal for Kirby to settle then)

Now here we are, "Couple weeks Kirby" wasting more and more time... They weren't serious before and they aren't serious now. Sure, progress is being made, but when do you wanna call a spade a spade?

the boldest text is literally NOT what our own union has stated,
On numerous occasions they have come out and said “far apart” only to then state a week later “progress has been made in some areas”.. but other areas are still “apart”.
At this point, they aren’t going through every section with a fine tooth comb. They have given the company our needs.
Even a week or two ago, our union came out stating the company was looking to keep some sections “as is” (vs improvements) and I also believe the term “concession” was also used a while back [either before Delta ratified their agreement.. or possibly after].

No one said Mediation is a Silver Bullet.
Mediation is the next step IF we don’t have an AIP>TA by 1st quarter results.

If they believe they can keep dragging this along, I fear they are mistaken.
If American and/or SouthWest get an agreement before us.. do we now need to pull ours and re-poll the pilot group? Surveys?
when is-
Enough Enough?
Guess it’s crazy to hear “we should have requested mediation last year” yet then hear.. “but now is not the time”
When?!

That simple question is all (some of us are) I’m asking.

We are rewriting BIG sections of the contract. The minutia in these sections have gigantic repercussions. There are too many gray areas in our current contract that was negotiated over years here and there in different negotiating environments. This needs to be negotiated with the understanding that we might live with these rules for decades. I understand the short term risk of recession or bank failures etc but we need to live with what we negotiate 20 yrs past the "recession of 24" if it happens.

I’m glad some of y’all aren’t on the negotiating team or union leaders.

Are you glad that your boss is pickpocketing you for at least 20% of your wages and countless hours of your time with your family?

No but if we went straight to mediation or a strike vote when the company is meeting with us and we are making progress then that just shoots ourselves in the foot.

Don't be so naive.

The company doesn't have to make reserve suck so bad but they choose to.

They could allow us to trip trade, but they refuse to.

They can't fill Captain slots. (duh)

Its almost like a better contract would protect them from themselves..

It takes weeks if not months to file for mediation, get on the calendar, get the mediator spun up, and start negotiating. It blows my mind that UALPA is not getting the process started NOW. Without mediation, DALPA would still be getting stonewalled by management. And don't get fooled into thinking the quantity of closed sections is important. The big dollar economic and high impact work rule sections are where mgmt is going to drag their feet as long as they possibly can.

You don’t just file for mediation because you won’t have a contract as fast as you would like, and you don’t file just in case things break down in the future. You file when negotiations have broken down, and we’re not close to that stage yet. We’re going through what Delta went through before. We shot down a TA, replaced our reps, and started fresh. There is a process to follow, and if I remember correctly, it took Delta over a year to go through that process resulting in TA2. In a 500+ page legal document, the devil is in the details. This needs to be done methodically and deliberately, not rushed. It’s simply not time for mediation or a strike vote considering that we just really started over with the passing of the Delta TA. They are still meeting frequently and apparently negotiating in good faith. It’s a huge document to rewrite and the big ticket items will be the last sections that are settled. That might not set well with the tough talking crowd, but it’s where we are and we need cool heads at the table.

This is painfully true. The old axiom about getting what you pay for definitely applies. Just like an aging fleet will eventually become more expensive to maintain than to replace, an “inexpensive” labor contract often carries ancillary costs & inefficiencies.

Hedley, your point has much merit. I have to love the Delta guys(Giordano Bruno) who come on here with all their flaming opinions couched as fact, wisdom and years of experience(not). GB is only offering his 1 opinion.
My personal opinion? Trying to get a mediator involved now will just give management the needed public ammunition to foot drag . They will tell the meditator and Wall Street that after the "Union's inability to negotiate due to recalls that they have been willing and able to meet". Mgt will then suggest 2 -4 days a month for meetings. It will not be like super mediation at the end game stage.

Let the NC and MEC do their job. They have only been at it a short while and currently suggest they are fairly happy with the progress. The current union position is a lot like a marital relationship. You can't hang the faults of your ex-wife on your new spouse. You just need to be happy that you recognized you were in a harmful relationship , disengaged, and found a new significant other that appears to respect you.... that would be/is your new MEC.

Again, JMHO

I can understand a 'new guy' not understanding what it looks like when the company is dragging their feet, but some of you damn well know better than to post that stuff. If they actually have decision makers at the table it's a win. Ask around if you want to know what stalling like.

There is a reason our CEO is smiling while he is stalling. He is making over $45,000 a day to do it. Yup, over a million a month, double in a month what the senior pilots make in a year, yet some of them are satisfied with the timeline we are on. We haven't gotten a real raise in over 4 years, but the CEO has, every year. But that's cool, he's worth it. let's just let this drag on. Watch him smile and buy another mansion.

He needs a new agent, Garrett Cole makes $10,000 per pitch. :)

$1M/month can easily be whittled away by the inefficiencies of a disgruntled labor force. What’s worse, many of those inefficiencies continue beyond DOS. It’s pretty easy to keep people motivated to go above & beyond when they’re already doing it, but it takes a lot more to buy them out of a clock-in/clock-out mentality after you‘ve lost their goodwill.

If SK indeed is intentionally stalling this out just to bank $1M/month, I fear he’s taking a very penny wise/pound foolish mentality, as he’ll pay well beyond that to clean up the mess his delay causes. Publicly stating he intended to match/exceed Delta when that was not his true intention was a major error that set him up to spend more than he planned on labor & still not get what he wanted out of it. Whether he feels it or not, he’s racing against a very expensive clock.

By April 7th we will have an AIP
My prediction

By April 15th it will be a TA

You sound like those FA’s that complain about the pay gap between their job and pilots. You want CEO pay? Go be a CEO. Your argument is irrelevant. Kirby gets what is alloyed to him by the BOD.

Bold prediction.

On an ironic note, I think that we can all be glad that the previous MEC tried to deliver the Tumi turd as it was written. Had they just come out with current book plus 15%, it probably would have passed, and hurt other airlines negotiations as well. Instead we got a rare example of unpolished excrement that was shot down by 94%, we replaced our bad apples, and Delta set the bar. This might not be fast, and those with arbitrary dates could easily be disappointed, but the final product will be much better than what we would have had if the previous MEC hadn’t tried to sell us such a substandard TA.

the previous MEC should have been section 8 th
not just replaced

Our (Yours, mine..) own Union posted on numerous Social Media platforms today -

The proposal on the table is not industry leading and continues to lag our peers in some key areas. While a gulf still exists, the Company is rowing in our direction. We encourage them to continue rowing!

Are they “rowing in our direction”?! Sounds like it. But at what speed?
Keep in mind what our CEO has said on numerous occasions-

United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby said the tentative contract between competitor Delta Air Lines and its pilots will help all major carriers "get deals done on the same terms."

We can get a deal done in 2 weeks

We will be the best Airline, with the best Contract and pilots will want to come here and be jealous if they aren’t*

It was 13 May 2022 that they (company/union) announced a deal. It was 24 Jun that it was sent out to the pilot group with a rush vote (to end on 15 Jul).

Our past union leadership (won’t say his name or nickname, don’t want another harassment complaint from him to HR!) really screwed this pilot group.
It was partly our fault as we didn’t hold him and them to the fire.
The latest Blastmail from a council is just making sure we DO hold our union accountable just as they should be holding the company (and especially our CEO) accountable.

Enough is Enough

*paraphrasing.. was said while at Charm School, but the audience was NewHires and new Captains. 12 July 22, I was in the audience!

Fixed it for you.

You can disagree with me, that's fine . I agree with you. The end result is the same. Getting a mediator involved now is not appropriate nor beneficial JMHO

Was at an Indoc/Charm school around the same time. Leadership was really proud. Even went so far as to point out a NH pilot that came over from Delta as proof of how great UAL is.
SK better step up to the plate because, much more of this, and leadership will be laughed off the floor after similar comments in the future. As it was, I had to hide my smirk and swallow my scoff and just gas off the cheerleading as "corporate esprit de corps and team building" which IS appropriate and understandable at such an event. Eventually however, there needs to be facts to back up the hype.

My daddy always tolt me, "Let your action speak louder than your words".

Management, are you listening?

Leverage lies with the negotiating party that is most satisfied with the status quo. I think this is a rare case, especially in aviation, where both sides won’t be satisfied with status quo. Both sides have a lot to lose with this dragging out, not to mention Delta has now given us a mediated benchmark.

Everything you hear from both union and company is just the messaging that both sides want and need you to hear. Both sides manipulate the story how they want, it’s part of negotiation. Take out the current emotion, take out past hurt feelings and grievances. This is just business, on both sides. Business tells mean AIP or very close by end of April.

I was at indoc recently and after a few good nights out and quite a few beers, it turns out that a good number of guys have either left for Delta, got a start date at Delta or have an interview date booked with Delta.

This only helps us in the long run. 👌🏻