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Is it time to discuss TUMI 4.0?

What does everyone think the timeline is now that GT has shared how far away the company is from what we want?

this is embarrassing.

I’m just wondering if the company will change after yesterdays vote. Doesn’t seem like they’ve met or talked since the vote closed.

Cautiously optimistic for now. We’ll see what the next counter proposal brings now that delta has set the standard.

I think my account is in jeopardy

But, but, but, but look at all our aircraft orders! Scotty says we’re the bestest airline ever! So much pilot hiring!! Fast upgrades!!! (because your reserve rules are trash) United next!!!!

Some of you boys are the definition of SUCKERS. Keep wearing those proud United lanyards while Scotty finesses your pilot group daily.

For every Fadec there must be a Finessed.

Unless big changes happen in the coming weeks, I guess it is clear that Kirby’s definition of a quick settlement is the same as a politician’s definition of a bipartisan agreement. Both mean that the other side must agree to everything that I want. Oh well. Dig in for the long haul. United won’t be an applicants first choice for a while, but Kirby knows that Delta can’t hire everyone.

Make sure that you close this one down before starting another. You wouldn’t want to get banned. 😁

Don’t get in a tizzy…
Just do as BlueWaffle stated-
(I cleaned it up~)
Fly Safe
Fly Professionally &
Fly the Contract.

The company my try to control us when we are on duty, or in uniform.. but when meeting regional pilots, don’t forget to mention how we are viewed by our senior management. When having dinner or a drink with new hires, make sure you TEACH them our union history…
Never forget- aircraft orders look and sound great. But it’s ONLY when they are painted and parked at our gate do they really matter.

Always
Motch

PS) Anyone and everyone, see ya next Tuesday at our Council 5 meeting.

The question is, will our new capts continue to give scotty a standing O in capt koolaid class, or will they turn their backs on him. almost makes me want to upgrade, I know what I would do.

I'm looking forward to welcoming BobTheNailer. 😆

https://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d...erS2E05_04.jpg

I’m not sure the proper balance between holding out for the contract of our dreams and dragging things out until the next downward swing in the economic cycle makes our current contract look decent.

Will follow GT’s lead in the meantime.

When you have people falling all over themselves to pick up every scrap of open time at straight pay, fill LCA jobs, mgmt projects, TK, etc…. It’s no wonder SK thinks we’re perfectly happy with the status quo.

Can we just cut/paste the Delta contract, please?

because it’s so far ahead of ours it’s not even funny.

im not even talking about the pay rates.

Case in point: I’d bet their reserve is going to go very senior with these new rules. Junior people will be FORCED to a line.

that will never happen here with our current garbage reserve.

just one example.

It is against the APC Forum Rules for forum users to advocate any labor action which is not authorized by the RLA/NMB. This applies to the advocacy of ANY wildcat actions, including slowdown, work-to-rules, withdrawal of enthusiasm (WOE), sickouts, etc. It is irrelevant whether the union itself has anything to do with the action.

Major unions have lost court cases and in one instance suffered severe financial damage in the process. Online posts, including anonymous posts and posts made here on APC, have been used in lawsuits against unions.

The rules on APC have not changed, but the enforcement will now result in a 30 day ban from APC for violations. Please don't sabotage your own union's efforts to secure industry leading

DL guy… my encouragement to keep pushing by the rules. RLA can work if the mec and members do their part.

In some bases/fleets it has been that way on the old contract too. I joke that I have never been senior enough to hold reserve, but there is truth to it as I have always bid a line from day 1. Fine by me. 320 fleet.

Thats a huge QOL gain for me and for the senior local dudes sitting at home cultivating their payback days. With 18 hour long call it is even better.

All this comm from union and company is very predictable, it’s part of the game of getting a deal. I just don’t get to emotional about any of it. Both sides have a narrative they need to get out into the world. Union needs the troops to stay engaged and rallied. The company needs to show investors that they hear them while also getting a narrative that tries to keep pilots calm. Wash, rinse, repeat till one day you have a AIP.

Maybe, and yes..,give and take is the norm in Contract negotiations. But after what our CEO publicly stated over the past months (and years.. let’s not forget the company/union stance on getting a deal done way back in 2018>2019), this Blastmail is both telling and somewhat worrisome.

I have NEVER advocated a work action. On the contrary, I have believed in my statement that we should ALL
Fly Safe
Fly Professionally &
Fly the Contract.

A look at both the ALPA Code of Ethics and our FOM states the same. (Just worded differently)
I still find it funny that mods on here question the work to rule or other actions that are not only required to sometimes force the issue, but bring up past cases to prove their point.

I may get a ban in the near future, but so be it.
I wonder if the mods would have been as quick to ban say, 150 years ago, 100 years ago, 60 years ago.
”we shouldn’t have kids working”
- you can’t say that, it’s the rule of law-
“we should let women vote”
-you can’t say that, it’s against the law-
“we should have civil and equal rights for Black Americans”
-you can’t say that, it’s against the law-

Mods, you have enormous power. I just hope you realize that when banning & censoring posts.
There is definitely a difference between someone writing up tires that might look questionable (to delay a flight) vs someone refusing an ETOPS flight because the APU gen is inop.
Or calling in sick.. should you now be afraid if you call in when you are following both the FAA Guidance and IMSAFE?
Something that both the company and union have said we need to do- evaluate if “IMSAFE”

crazy times.
Motch

I don’t understand why we are up arms…. We just went back to the table with new Union leadership… Expectations of having a TA prior to April/Easter in my opinion was very let me just say too optimistic…

It’s not APC’s role to protect the union or the company. Stop banning people for posting their opinions. Maybe it’s time for an alternative.

The forum rules that specifically address wildcat strikes and illegal job actions have been posted here since the federal injunction against ALPA (almost 2 decades). If you you don’t like the forum rules please understand that all you have to is walk away.

On one hand, I think we all understand that if the company seems to be shifting away from an employee-centric workplace, there will undoubtedly be a change the status quo…not necessarily coordinated or intentional, but a de facto move nonetheless.

On the other hand, you must understand that a website facilitating discussions of premeditated illegal work actions is completely untenable, right?

The only reason why Motch gets away with his tagline is because he has said that all along… So that is not a change in his status quo. But for the rest of us to verbalize, that we will modify our behavior if things don’t go as we wish… That’s playing with fire.

Would you be ok with saboteurs making post to harm our collective bargaining ability? We have tactless clowns in our own ranks, internet trolls who thrive on stirring feces, and professional union busters who would LOVE access to an unmoderated forum of this title.

I hope we can get our collective crap together and - at the very least- NOT shoot ourselves in the foot.

Even Motch's posts can be taken out of context when presented as evidence in court. This isn't Matlock or Law & Order... Nobody (important) in that courtroom will care about his post history. We've seen this movie before. Ask the pilots who actually sat in the courtroom how it went down.

Do you not understand the history? Forum posts have been used against unions in court cases, which then have been lost and resulted in severe damages.

The mods are trying to save you from yourselves and others.

Tell me you don’t know about the Delta 49’ers without telling me you don’t know about the Delta 49’ers.

do you think that your coworkers are not currently “flying safe, flying professionally, and flying the contract?” If they are, what are you advocating? If they aren’t, how so?

Because of the anonymous nature of this forum, I would fully expect a management member (or misguided sympathizer) to break this very rule and take a screenshot of their own post in order to get their dream TRO. If negotiations were further protracted and ugly, why wouldn’t they? How would APC possibly prevent this? It’s a slam dunk. What a liability. Such a messed-up system.

Well, just like there is a need to rehash the DYK's, to mention certain items with regards to PBS bidding, Vacation bidding, Vacancy Bidding, etc..
We have thousands of New Hires and thousands of pilots changing BES (Base, Equipment, Seat) so I do not see anything wrong with stating what I have stated for over 25years.

Do you think that any of the pilots/crews that have been involved with the rash of runway incursions are unsafe? or did they let their guard down and it bit them in the ass due to a connection of errors?
Stating something as simple as "Fly Safe" might just make a handful of pilots slow the F down and put Safety where it's suppose to be- #1.

Professionalism- We can argue day and night about calling in sick when you just don't feel right, or answering the phone when you are not required to.
If a pilot answers the phone on a rest, is he/she being professional? If she/he now doesn't get adequate rest and still FFD- is he/she Professional? Are they Safe?

Our ALPA Code of Ethics demands what we Act a certain way. I see nothing wrong with reiterating that.
You asked if some of our pilots were not flying S, P & tC.
Let me put one thing out there-

We fly from EWR to Hawaii. 3 Pilot (ETOPS) and 1:30 show.
We also flew EWR>SFO>Hawaii. Now it was a 2 Pilot crew and :45 show.
Some Captains (when in SFO) would take an earlier bus, and rush to get out on time. Other Captains would do the opposite. Same van time and no rush to get out on time as there were more items to check out before going feet wet. If they got out on time, cool. If not, oh well. (and we were usually talking 10ish mins?)
Both Captains thought they were Professional, Safe and Flew the Contract.
However, you and I and every other pilot reading this is allowed their opinion with regards to which Captain they would be.

I will NEVER advocate a work action, I will never tolerate it if I see it. I am a Professional, and I feel most of our fellow union pilots are too. But- not all of them~

Always
Motch

all great stuff, but it seems a bit irrelevant in a thread about negotiations progress

Because they would subpoena APC to reveal your identity or IP like they did with the Delta lawsuit. This false flag operation you imagined would not work.

April/Easter 2024 would be a lot more realistic

It’s pretty easy to work around that with a VPN as well as registering your account on a Starbucks Wi-Fi? It would likely take someone posting about a violent felony for the authorities to want to take the time to track you down.

A fake email address and VPN don't hide your MAC address and that's what I'd be concerned about. If you've ever connected to a United WiFi network with the same device that you access APC and done so without a VPN, guess what? They have your MAC address.

With server logs it's easy to tie a forum username to a device. Most of the tools are automated, so given a server log, it would be like running a "Find" search in Word. It's not rocket science, for a motivated party - like a well funded legal department - your identity is on this forum is discoverable. The "authorities" I'd be concerned with are not law enforcement, but a judge who signed a subpoena compelling Internet Brands (the parent company of APC) to furnish user data.

Based on the recent message from the union that "they don't need helper pilots" conducting wildcat actions coupled with the reality that your identity is discoverable, being deliberate with your posts is probably a good thing.

Not that it matters but most newish android devices automatically randomize your MAC address every time you connect to any wifi connection. That would make it nearly impossible for anyone to look at forum data and know who's android device it came from. Especially using a VPN as well.

Advocating a slowdown is a very poor idea. It’s illegal & will land you in a great deal of personal distress & accomplish nothing of substance on a large scale. What I don’t know if the company realizes, though, is that organic loss of enthusiasm is way more destructive than an intentional slowdown. An organized action can be turned off & on like a light switch. (Contract signed, everything goes back to normal immediately.) Employee morale? Once that’s gone, it’s gone.

Workplace enthusiasm is like a speed/drag power curve. Once you get on the backside of it, it becomes exponentially difficult to get it back. Scott would not be the first airline manager to lose the confidence of his pilots then lazily conclude that they’re just insatiable money grabbers when modest attempts to buy it back fail. We’ve all seen this movie before.

For the last couple years, all I’ve heard from this airline is how powerful & meaningful are personal touches from the pilots. Which, honestly, great- let’s be the customer service airline. But there’s nothing new or creative about wanting “Give A *******“ employees under DGAS conditions. Telling us for months that you’re planning to give us an industry leading contract in 2 weeks then finally making a mediocre offer & suggesting we’re not being reasonable is a major flub up. I think the “we are not close” statement was the beginning of a rapid drop in general enthusiasm, & honestly, I worry about where we end up as an airline if he hasn’t cleaned this up by the summer. A contract today would continue United’s meteoric momentum. A contract in a few months could just be a more expensive way to have p1$$ed off pilots.

No retro-pay no work improvements or Delta pay+ will be No Vote

Dont forget SK’s pathetic attempt to remind everyone that United is the “flag” carrier any chance he gets on social media. The US doesn’t have a true flag carrier.

Ya it’s not the “authorities” that track you down. It is company paid goons. There are literally Hundreds of Millions of dollars at stake. They will aggressively come at you, they love to take hostages. Then we get to pay for you with negotiating capital.