8-F-12
09-01-2023 | 03:47 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,448
Likes: 6
I am not sure what the fuzz is all about. Current contract allows upgrade at 500 hours on United metal and people are upgrading. This means that a new hire 777 FO can upgrade to 737 CA as long as he has 500 hours on United metal. The new contract says they have to have at a minimum 350 hours time on type before they can upgrade and once they do, a minimum of 100 hours of OE. That's only 50 hours less than previous contract and with 100 hours of managed OE included and addtl. ground school on top of that.
Old contract: 500 hours on United metal.
New contract: 450 hours on United metal and type and they still have to pass through the school house twice and through OE twice and get FAA sign offs etc - meaning, It's not an "automatic Captain" just being thrown into the wild.
Furthermore, while that junior person has been assigned the CA upgrade, if any other senior pilot upgrades between the new hire's indoc and the 350 hours, they can get bumped off their upgrade.
Most people that come here have already been Captains before, a lot at regionals with way worse conditions and to way more "manual" airports. I am not worried about this one bit. There is no data that supports that a new hire (which does not equate to lack of experience) is more prone to having an incident than a highly experienced/more senior crew, just to give an example. I think this has been proven already by taking a look at the latest slew of incidents in our industry.
Old contract: 500 hours on United metal.
New contract: 450 hours on United metal and type and they still have to pass through the school house twice and through OE twice and get FAA sign offs etc - meaning, It's not an "automatic Captain" just being thrown into the wild.
Furthermore, while that junior person has been assigned the CA upgrade, if any other senior pilot upgrades between the new hire's indoc and the 350 hours, they can get bumped off their upgrade.
Most people that come here have already been Captains before, a lot at regionals with way worse conditions and to way more "manual" airports. I am not worried about this one bit. There is no data that supports that a new hire (which does not equate to lack of experience) is more prone to having an incident than a highly experienced/more senior crew, just to give an example. I think this has been proven already by taking a look at the latest slew of incidents in our industry.
09-01-2023 | 04:05 PM
#22
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Joined: Oct 2006
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09-01-2023 | 04:05 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,923
Likes: 95
So how is the "choice" going to be enforced in indoc? Let's say there's a 50 person class with 3 people eligible for 737 direct entry captain jobs since they have the hours. However, since they have the hours it's safe to bet they will be older than most people in the class. The drop is 3x 737 CA, 40x 73 FO's, 5x airbus and 2x 756's. Are those 3 going to have their seniority in the class ignored and be forced to take the 3x direct entry slots even though they are senior enough to chose something else, or will they be able to take the airbus slots? Then what happens if the last 3 slots available are CA only? Do the youngest 3 in the class eat a forced upgrade when they get the hours, or will they be able to take a FO only slot?
09-01-2023 | 04:10 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 3,633
Likes: 209
From a practical standpoint, though, who will be “forced” to upgrade? I guess they could close down VBs in NB categories, but if they (8-F-12 pilot) decide they don’t want it, won’t it just be consumed at the next VB by a traditional upgrade?
This is a serious question—I haven’t yet read how that will work. At least the language I’ve read so far just vaguely addresses it.
09-01-2023 | 04:14 PM
#25
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 691
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As a potential new-hire who isn’t really interested in a forced upgrade, how might this actually look? Will there be new-hire classes where there are only NBCA drops? Or will there still be F/O positions mixed into each class drop? Interesting times…
09-01-2023 | 05:16 PM
#26
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 855
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It’s clear they intend to force upgrades on new hires. There are several outs that would free someone from the Upgrade Games
A) not being sent to training on time
B) “extra” people wanting captain slots on subsequent bids. There seems to be a lot of effort around limiting the number of captain slots offered so the company can’t game the system. ? If it works
As for how they will offer such slots… making an entire class go to mandatory upgrade seems both really poor optics and a potential logistical challenge. But if they have 50 open captain slots, I don’t see anything preventing them. For now, anybody under 40 probably should be prepared to spend a two-year mission in Newark.
A) not being sent to training on time
B) “extra” people wanting captain slots on subsequent bids. There seems to be a lot of effort around limiting the number of captain slots offered so the company can’t game the system. ? If it works
As for how they will offer such slots… making an entire class go to mandatory upgrade seems both really poor optics and a potential logistical challenge. But if they have 50 open captain slots, I don’t see anything preventing them. For now, anybody under 40 probably should be prepared to spend a two-year mission in Newark.
09-01-2023 | 05:17 PM
#27
Slam-Clicka
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 85
Would have been nice if this $hizz sandwich was somehow tweaked into a DEC offering for people who want it. Having said that….I sincerely doubt an entire class will have NOBODY that chooses the CA spot. Personally….it’s not enough of a stinker for me to vote against all the other gains.
09-01-2023 | 05:23 PM
#28
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 219
Likes: 12
From: Guppy CA
8-D-6 says that freezes have to be lifted for the given categories before Captain vacancies can be assigned to new hires. I doubt it would prevent the company from assigning Captain vacancies, but hopefully it would keep it reigned in. Though hope is not a strategy....
09-01-2023 | 07:18 PM
#29
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 660
Likes: 45
Choice starts prior to your timeline.
If he doesn't want to wear a uniform don't apply.
If he doesn't want a possibly of being forced into a captain upgrade, don't apply.
I mean it's not like applicants won't know the rules before hitting submit on the application. You might have a point if the current pilots weren't protected. My question/thoughts are not analogous to , "If you don't like it quit, SW, AA and DAL are hiring"
Quitting is forfeiting seniority. Re-prioritizing your "dream job" prior to be hiring is assessing current conditions. To me, they are different.
If he doesn't want to wear a uniform don't apply.
If he doesn't want a possibly of being forced into a captain upgrade, don't apply.
I mean it's not like applicants won't know the rules before hitting submit on the application. You might have a point if the current pilots weren't protected. My question/thoughts are not analogous to , "If you don't like it quit, SW, AA and DAL are hiring"
Quitting is forfeiting seniority. Re-prioritizing your "dream job" prior to be hiring is assessing current conditions. To me, they are different.
You can put the onus on the applicant, and you’re not completely wrong. However, if United has a major event as a result of this (if it plays out how the language is being interpreted on here), it’ll be everyone’s problem because public confidence in the company will be lost.
