Short call question
12-08-2023, 08:58 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by Ice Bear
Super common misunderstanding that your max RAP+FDP is based on the time your RAP started. It's actually based on your report time.
https://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=LuTU%2FiviaQE%3D&tabid=3 335#page32
https://far117understanding.com/operational-perspectives/how-maximum-flight-duty-periods-and-maximum-flight-times-will-affect-airlines-far-121-subpart-q-versus-far-117-activated-short-call-reserve/
12-08-2023, 09:08 AM
#12
Tu-144 VV-A14 KR860 Typed
Joined APC: May 2022
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by TOGALOCK
Incorrect. It’s only measured from report time for a long call reserve where legal rest is available following the issuance of the assignment. For a short call, FDP is measured from the beginning of the RAP period.
https://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=LuTU%2FiviaQE%3D&tabid=3 335#page32
https://far117understanding.com/operational-perspectives/how-maximum-flight-duty-periods-and-maximum-flight-times-will-affect-airlines-far-121-subpart-q-versus-far-117-activated-short-call-reserve/
https://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=LuTU%2FiviaQE%3D&tabid=3 335#page32
https://far117understanding.com/operational-perspectives/how-maximum-flight-duty-periods-and-maximum-flight-times-will-affect-airlines-far-121-subpart-q-versus-far-117-activated-short-call-reserve/
Q-142. How does an unaugmented reserve pilot determine his/her maximum FDP?
Example 1:
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 0600. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP that beginsat 1200 and consists of two flight segments. Given that the flightcrew member in this example began his/her RAP at 0600, he/she will have six hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1200. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a two-segment FDP that begins at 1200 is 13 hours. The applicable 13-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 17 hours. Because this is greater than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent RAP + FDP limit for this unaugmented operation is 16 hours. As a result, to stay within the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit, this flightcrew member’s FDP cannot exceed 10 hours without an extension, as his/her RAP will use up six hours of the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit.
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 1100. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP consisting of five flight segments that begins at 1500. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a five-segment FDP that begins at 1500 is 11.5 hours. The applicable 11.5-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 15.5 hours. Because this is smaller than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent FDP + RAP limit for this unaugmented operation is 15.5 hours. Since the flightcrew member in this example began his/ her RAP at 1100, he/she will have four hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1500. Consequently, this flightcrew member can take the full 11.5-hour FDP as the 11.5-hour FDP plus the four hours of RAP will not exceed the 15.5- hour RAP + FDP limit.
Example 1:
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 0600. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP that beginsat 1200 and consists of two flight segments. Given that the flightcrew member in this example began his/her RAP at 0600, he/she will have six hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1200. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a two-segment FDP that begins at 1200 is 13 hours. The applicable 13-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 17 hours. Because this is greater than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent RAP + FDP limit for this unaugmented operation is 16 hours. As a result, to stay within the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit, this flightcrew member’s FDP cannot exceed 10 hours without an extension, as his/her RAP will use up six hours of the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit.
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 1100. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP consisting of five flight segments that begins at 1500. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a five-segment FDP that begins at 1500 is 11.5 hours. The applicable 11.5-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 15.5 hours. Because this is smaller than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent FDP + RAP limit for this unaugmented operation is 15.5 hours. Since the flightcrew member in this example began his/ her RAP at 1100, he/she will have four hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1500. Consequently, this flightcrew member can take the full 11.5-hour FDP as the 11.5-hour FDP plus the four hours of RAP will not exceed the 15.5- hour RAP + FDP limit.
12-08-2023, 09:20 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 377
I believe the only flaw in your decision of time they can use you is a deadhead at the end of the trip is not considered duty per FAR 117. The contract (I’m going by memory) allows you to go 2 hours beyond the table B plus 4. Double check that but there was an interpretation of FAR 117 in 2014 or 2015 that defined a deadhead at the end of a trip as not duty so the contract is the limiting factor.
Originally Posted by QOLmax
In my particular example, SC started at 0200. Since that time is considered a RAP per FAR117, my max FDP would be shortest of (A) Table B limits + 4 hrs, which is 13 hrs, or (B) 16 hrs. So max RAP + FDP is 13 hrs, meaning FDP must end by 3pm.
With that said, my example in the 1st post would hold true... I can't legally be assigned anything after about 10am, without requiring an FDP extension or disruption of HDO, correct?
With that said, my example in the 1st post would hold true... I can't legally be assigned anything after about 10am, without requiring an FDP extension or disruption of HDO, correct?
12-08-2023, 09:22 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by Ice Bear
The Table B number you add 4 to is based on report time, then applied to the beginning of the RAP. Right? From your link, two examples:
In those two examples, the 13 hours and 11.5 hours are based on the report time & number of segments.
In those two examples, the 13 hours and 11.5 hours are based on the report time & number of segments.
My apologies. I’ll admit to being half wrong 😂. I’ll also say that I was half educated.
12-08-2023, 11:41 AM
#16
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by TOGALOCK
An 0200 short call wouldn’t be legal for a 1600 assignment. A short call FDP starts at the time of the reserve period and they are good for 16 hours OR 117 table b + 4 hours - Whichever is less. So in the case of an 0200 short call, they need to duty off no later than 1500. Unfortunately, a deadhead on the backend wouldn’t count however and would be the only legal way of going past 1500.
12-08-2023, 04:22 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,011
Originally Posted by 744ButtonPusher
except the off duty time he says is mandatory is not correct. It’s off by a few hours.
I guess it would depend on the actual time of the FDP start. But a 2am RAP start (hypothetical) would only be a 9 hour FDP allowance per Table B. So 9 plus the 4 four hours would be a 13 hour legal FDP 0200-1500. But yes, a report time after 0400 would keep them legal until 1600. They would only be good for the full 16 hour (until 1800) if the report time was after 0500.
Too much math these days with 117. It was easier when it was hard set… I was a perpetual zombie on reserve, but at least math was easy haha
Last edited by TOGALOCK; 12-08-2023 at 04:36 PM.
12-08-2023, 05:07 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by TOGALOCK
I guess it would depend on the actual time of the FDP start. But a 2am RAP start (hypothetical) would only be a 9 hour FDP allowance per Table B. So 9 plus the 4 four hours would be a 13 hour legal FDP 0200-1500. But yes, a report time after 0400 would keep them legal until 1600. They would only be good for the full 16 hour (until 1800) if the report time was after 0500.
Too much math these days with 117. It was easier when it was hard set… I was a perpetual zombie on reserve, but at least math was easy haha
Too much math these days with 117. It was easier when it was hard set… I was a perpetual zombie on reserve, but at least math was easy haha
you enter the chart for your max FDP calculations at the time of report for the assignment. Then you calculate your FDP. Then add 4 hours to that result. Then you compare that your your max RAP of 16 hours. Whichever is less is what you use to determine your release time. That release time will drive how long your FDP can be.
See the previous answer that copied and pasted example 1.
Q-142. How does an unaugmented reserve pilot determine his/her maximum FDP?
Example 1:
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 0600. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP that begins at 1200 and consists of two flight segments. Given that the flightcrew member in this example began his/her RAP at 0600, he/she will have six hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1200. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a two-segment FDP that begins at 1200 is 13 hours. The applicable 13-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 17 hours. Because this is greater than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent RAP + FDP limit for this unaugmented operation is 16 hours. As a result, to stay within the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit, this flightcrew member’s FDP cannot exceed 10 hours without an extension, as his/her RAP will use up six hours of the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit.
Example 1:
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 0600. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP that begins at 1200 and consists of two flight segments. Given that the flightcrew member in this example began his/her RAP at 0600, he/she will have six hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1200. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a two-segment FDP that begins at 1200 is 13 hours. The applicable 13-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 17 hours. Because this is greater than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent RAP + FDP limit for this unaugmented operation is 16 hours. As a result, to stay within the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit, this flightcrew member’s FDP cannot exceed 10 hours without an extension, as his/her RAP will use up six hours of the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit.
12-08-2023, 05:11 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by TOGALOCK
I guess it would depend on the actual time of the FDP start. But a 2am RAP start (hypothetical) would only be a 9 hour FDP allowance per Table B. So 9 plus the 4 four hours would be a 13 hour legal FDP 0200-1500. But yes, a report time after 0400 would keep them legal until 1600. They would only be good for the full 16 hour (until 1800) if the report time was after 0500.
Too much math these days with 117. It was easier when it was hard set… I was a perpetual zombie on reserve, but at least math was easy haha
Too much math these days with 117. It was easier when it was hard set… I was a perpetual zombie on reserve, but at least math was easy haha
you enter the chart for your max FDP calculations at the time of report for the assignment. Then you calculate your FDP. Then add 4 hours to that result. Then you compare that your your max RAP of 16 hours. Whichever is less is what you use to determine your release time. That release time will drive how long your FDP can be.
See the previous answer that copied and pasted example 1.
Q-142. How does an unaugmented reserve pilot determine his/her maximum FDP?
Example 1:
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 0600. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP that begins at 1200 and consists of two flight segments. Given that the flightcrew member in this example began his/her RAP at 0600, he/she will have six hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1200. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a two-segment FDP that begins at 1200 is 13 hours. The applicable 13-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 17 hours. Because this is greater than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent RAP + FDP limit for this unaugmented operation is 16 hours. As a result, to stay within the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit, this flightcrew member’s FDP cannot exceed 10 hours without an extension, as his/her RAP will use up six hours of the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit.
Example 1:
An acclimated unaugmented flightcrew member begins a RAP at 0600. That flightcrew member is then assigned to an unaugmented FDP that begins at 1200 and consists of two flight segments. Given that the flightcrew member in this example began his/her RAP at 0600, he/she will have six hours of accumulated RAP time by the time his/her FDP will start at 1200. According to Table B, the FDP limit for a two-segment FDP that begins at 1200 is 13 hours. The applicable 13-hour FDP limit plus four hours equals 17 hours. Because this is greater than 16 hours, under Section 117.21(c)(3), the pertinent RAP + FDP limit for this unaugmented operation is 16 hours. As a result, to stay within the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit, this flightcrew member’s FDP cannot exceed 10 hours without an extension, as his/her RAP will use up six hours of the 16-hour RAP + FDP limit.
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