Airline Pilot Central Forums - Standards Meeting Notes

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Quote:

Originally Posted by greatmovieistar (Post 3947003)

I am not CEO of a major airline going on National TV wishing thousands of pilots go out in the streets without jobs.

Neither is Kirby, despite what you repeatedly say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatmovieistar (Post 3947003)

Plus where did I wish for your demise? Karma is a B and I won't be the one administering it.

Pretty sure you’d be happy for SK to fall in the dumper, aka UAL. Not a giant leap equating the crap you cry about in reference to SK and the rhetoric you use as well. But he’s the only scumbag in the room. You won’t be administering the karma to Kirby? Thanks for clearing that up🤣 See the bold below in a very well-worded reply that, somehow, you’ll turn on its end. Those points are salient and what happens across the board. The fact that SK says some things openly that you think are classless doesn’t change the fact that all of the CEOs would be equally happy with the same market climate. The CEOs would crush their own pilot group if it meant better profits, corporate standing, and share prices. Somehow you feel like business is some benevolent structure. “My competition isn’t doing well, that sucks for the pilot group.” Thats a sentiment I hope all of us simple-brained stick monkeys share. That’s not the sentiment I want my big-brained CEO to have. Somehow it appears you struggle to see the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longhornmaniac8 (Post 3947049)

Let me start out by saying I have lots of friends at NK and feel for every single one of them. They have a lot of good people at their company. There but for the grace of God go I.

That being said, I think you're making personal what simply isn't. I have not once heard SK ever celebrating individual people losing their jobs, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The reality is in this business there are winners and losers. Not as people, but as companies. And SK has been saying for years now what most of us have known; the ULCC model, and especially NK, are not likely to succeed long term. As things have accelerated in that regard, the rhetoric surrounding it has shifted from a "when, not if," to a "how soon." You're interpreting that as actively rooting for their employees' losses of livelihood which is a huge leap in logic. Everything I've seen him say was factual and narrowly-focused on the competition between the businesses as singular entities.

His responsibility is to United. In this business, your gains often come at the expense of others. We knew that when we signed up, and none of us will know until the end of our careers if we made the right decision. For better or for worse, our current system doesn't afford leaders of businesses the opportunity to be sensitive to the individual employees at companies we're competing against. He would be derelict in his fiduciary duty to United if he said "let's leave our competitor alive to keep their employees working." I wouldn't expect any competitor not to try to kick United when it's down.

It's just business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavk (Post 3947063)

Bingo - happens all the time. Ask one of the old CAL guys about TORQUE.

Yup

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3947039)

Preferential interviews are a gift. Nothing more. United doesn't have to do them. ALPA will obviously advocate for them but the fact that management is giving pilots who have just lost their jobs a faster path back to work should be commended not condemned.

Not exactly.

21-R Hiring Standards

Subject to other legal obligations, the Company shall make reasonable efforts to fill Pilot vacancies with the individuals who satisfy United’s hiring standards, who have previously worked for carriers represented by ALPA, and who are no longer working for those carriers for economic reasons such as lay-offs or the shutdown of that carrier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sl0wr0ll3r (Post 3947167)

“Reasonable efforts” is one of those weasel word expressions that legally means nothing. Since United sets United hiring standards, and don’t exactly announce them, not to mention they constantly change with the hiring market (today a four year degree, tomorrow volunteer work at a cat rescue shelter, etc.) Plus, who could have standing to sue for breach of contract - pretty much nobody except members of UAL ALPA, who by definition already were hired and hence weren’t harmed by the alleged breech.

Not saying UAL is hiring NK guys out of the goodness of their hearts, it’s a cadre of trained and experienced people that they can use while keeping regional people in the regional feeders a little longer. It’s a good business decision for them too, but this CBA clause really doesn’t compel them to do it in any meaningful way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3946675)

If you listen to Kirby on podcasts he wasn't allowed to implement hardly anything over there. Almost every time he tried to make a difference, he was shot down by Parker. American would be a much different airline right now if they had just let Kirby run it.

Said the same thing to my charm school class in 2019. He wasn't the "boss with the final say" of any of his ideas. Got the sense that he was happy to be working for someone (Oscar) who let him run and improve the operations and hubs. Specifically mentioned that it was ludicrous the previous CEO floated the idea of closing DEN when he saw it as a gem with great employees that needed to be given the chance to be the money maker he saw in its true potential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3947335)

Yeah, I was thinking similar after reading the text. Define to me reasonable effort and "meets the hiring standard" which likely includes difficult to define stuff they're feeling out in the interview. At least they're looking at a ton of NK guys.

Sorry but is there any airline anywhere that says they’ll hire all furloughed ALPA pilots no questions asked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck D (Post 3947369)

Sorry but is there any airline anywhere that says they’ll hire all furloughed ALPA pilots no questions asked?

I think that the issue that most of us have is that the language of 21-R is very weak. To truly make it effective is should read that the airline shall grant interviews to any affected ALPA pilot. Rather, 21-R in its current form just awards additional points in an ever changing formula. It needs to be improved.

You say “most of us” would like it improved but it’s in the contract “most of us” voted for. I think it works and we will certainly still interview and hire a fair number of pilots from any furloughing ALPA carrier when we’re hiring, but so should others. I don’t want the companies hands tied if there’s a compelling reason to pass by someone’s resume. I recall when SWA was hiring some Aloha pilots they had no interest in taking every single one. At some point that’s gonna swing the company culture and isn’t a perfect solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatmovieistar;[url=tel:3947003

3947003[/url]]Sorry bro, I am not CEO of a major airline going on National TV wishing thousands of pilots go out in the streets without jobs. But hey you can get preferential hiring here starting over at the bottom of the list lol. Plus where did I wish for your demise? Karma is a B and I won't be the one administering it.

Post evidence of him saying these words or shut up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3947335)

“Reasonable efforts” is one of those weasel word expressions that legally means nothing.

Could you show me a pilot group with superior language? Contractual language is just part of such efforts that are inculcated at United where ALPA has been more successful than any other pilot group in getting fellow pilots whose airlines were in trouble hired and it has benefitted the airline greatly. Ex-Pan Am, Eastern and others have brought all kinds of great ideas and improvements to United and United ALPA.