From everything I've read and especially the capacity numbers from 2008 forward, the seat at the dance didn't disappear. I think that was the original intent with furloughed pilots being stapled. In that I mean that the reason they are on the street is their company is failing and there is no recourse. After 9/11, I think that was very much true for everybody. All carriers had an immediate decrease in revenues on the order of 20%. Wow... that's huge and as a company you do what you have to do to survive. I think a dire condition is what the staple intent implied

UAL in 2008 is a different story and the proof of that is to look at the capacity mix before and after the 737 park. It looks like much of that ASM's lost was made up by the 70 seaters. While nearly all major airlines had capacity decreases on both mainline and express ,UAL, on the otherhand, increased their UAX ASM's by 10%. Flying never really left...only swapped equipment.

I would say the seat at the dance was pulled out from those who furloughed and given to (outsourced) express. I know they are trying to fix that hole made by the concessionary contract. I really hope that happens as its important not only for them but to have that prevented to others at other airlines. If you think those guys should be punished for being the first burned Guinea Pig, well , I guess to me that says the pull up the ladder philosophy is alive and well. Nice.

"Our Germans are Better Than Their Germans"
 

Both sides need to stop with the petty whining and get past this. We all know that SLI will be settled by an arbitrator. Just get the payscale structure figured out and get he best contract we can. Both sides have a lot to gain from this deal. People on this forum are acting like Will Ferrell in the movie Step Brothers when it comes to sharing toys.

The fundamental issue regarding the pay structure is what planes fit into the different categories for pay ie. *Wide body/ Narrow Body etc. * *On one hand I believe that the 747 should not be in the same category as a 767 because there is a huge difference in range and capabilities. *That includes the 767-400 comparison. * On the other hand the 747-400 will be gone in the next 7 years regardless because of the age of the aircraft. * Currently the oldest one flying is 21 years old and the newest is about 10 years old. *Assuming UAL is not planning on buying newer 747s or A380s I personally wouldn't want the "premier" pay rate to disappear along with the planes. I would want the highest pay to remain in place for the majority of the widebody flying. *

That being said these issues need to be settled and we all need to move forward. * We can debate all day how we would be better off without each other had the merger never happened. The fact is that our metaphorical parents are married to each other now and we all have many more toys to play with now than we had before. **The CAL pilots now have a lot of wide body flying that they didn't before and personally as a UAL pilot I am happy to see more domestic flying available. * I believe that those who advocate not talking and letting JCBA issue linger should wake the hell up. *We are all on the same side in the end. *

You need to go back and reread what I said. I don't have a dog in the hunt. I'm just telling you how the last two mega mergers went. The one before that, AA/TWA, was a staple job for the most part. You are trying to make a case that your seat is still there it just is being flown by someone at a contract airline. That's an interesting way to put it. I imagine the arbitrator is going to see it as what was being flown at the snapshot date of merger announcement.

To be clear, I don't think the furloughee's should be punished at all. I have almost 3 years of furlough time. I know what it is like. I also think you should be realistic as to where this is all going to pan out. Unless you guys at CAL and UAL come to an agreement outside of arbitration, then your future is not in your hands.

Hardly. You need to look at the not just the total numbers but the relative percentage of retirements at each carrier. Its not the number but the ratio of retirements vs. total active pilots. Once age 65 kicks back in the retirements at CAL are significantly higher by percentage.

Sorry. It just ain't going to happen. No, I'm not an arbitrator but a long precedent has been established and I think most folks can see the logic behind it. Statements like these are what makes a lot of CAL pilots, like the guy who started this thread, think that we're better off staying seperate as long as possible. Not one of 'em, just sayin...:cool:

It won't be the CAL pilots that "pull up the ladder". The UAL guys did that to their own when, BK or no, they voted to allow the company to outsource all the 737 flying. :mad:

Can you please show the percentages and numbers you used to come up with that.

Thanks

I can assure you that the United furloughees will file a DFR lawsuit if stapled which will delay the SLI for years. This would obviously be in their best interest if that were the outcome.

Don't count on it. You only need to look as far as the US Air integration to tell you that statement is false. Now if you don't have a JCBA before the SLI then you can do exactly like the US Air pilots and refuse to negotiate a joint contract so that the SLI never goes into effect. (not really true either since they lost in court) If you guys have a joint contract then do your SLI, which will go to arbitration, then whatever the arbitrator rules will be in effect. There will be no delay and you can file all the lawsuits you want because they will be against a federal arbitrator. I don't know how you expect to file a DFR lawsuit.

This is going to be real interesting based on your code a phone messages you guys don't look like your going to come to an agreement any time soon.