*** Most intelligent thing said here yet. ***

Too bad more people don't get it.

I don't have a dog directly in this hunt either, but ultimately how it plays out will likely effect all of us in the industry. If the two groups get together, get united (sorry for the play on words), and demand some badly needed changes the entire industry will benefit, including your own group come contract next. BTW - personally I'd start with all flying over 9 seats (no I didn't leave a 1 or a zero off) is performed in house, but that's just me.

Screw it up and do another crap-tastic job like UselessAir and we'll all suffer from the fallout as 60+ years of our predecessors fighting (and dying) for better pay, security, and working conditions continues to unwind. It's your move, but the outcome of the game WILL reach far beyond the limits of your playing board.

 

Here, here!


Come on guys . . . take the high road for once in your life! Every day we bicker loses us all money. Think of it, you are giving up thousands of dollars a month in pay and benefits when the issues are truly insignificant. We are quickly becoming our own worst enemy. We all want the same result . . . a better life in the future, and without question that is within our grasp if we can get over this incredibly petty fight. I'm a United pilot with a reasonable expectation of making 400 captain for many years, but I will gladly trade a few percent seniority for a winning company of which I can be proud and a future with certainty that was lacking just a few months earlier. No matter how the chips fall you will not be pushed out of your domicile or seat and if we get this right your movement upward and forward can be greatly accelerated by the success of our Mega-carrier status. Aside from groveling on my hands and knees I don't know how to bring the nay-sayers on board other than to ask: What will make your future brightest, fighting til hell freezes over for 5% seniority or finding common ground and facing the corporation with a united front to demand the fair share we all lost in the decades past.

Man up. Get on board. Stop whining and fight for what is rightfully yours, but recognize that "we" (be that UAL or CAL) are NOT the enemy!



JP

 

Sure. Thanks to Age 65, retirements start kicking back in in 2012. Between 2012 and 2020 UAL projects 1910 retirements, CAL 1777. That's an average of 212.2/yr. for UAL and 197.5/yr. at CAL. UAL has about 6497 active pilots and CAL 4804. That means an average retirement per annum of 3.2% at UAL vs. 4.1% at CAL. If you want to include the UAL furloughees, the percentage retirement at UAL decreases much further.

Unless your on a MC, none of us will have anything to say about it and I won't debate it any further. My point is that I think some CAL guys are getting tired of hearing their career expectations are so paltry compared to those on the UAL list. We disagree. Most are willing to let the arbitrator hash it out when the time comes (and it will), but keep hammering on the lofty UAL career expecations and there will be more CAL guys willing to sit on POS 02 indefinitely.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

One of the advantages of the Arbitrated outcome (at least for ALPA directly as an outside entity) is that is basically wipes their hands 'free' of direct responsibility in the DFR responsibilities in it being the direct ruling party in any type of SLI outcome (IE ALPA fostered outcome between the 2 SLI com's w/o Arbitration). In that case, the only DFR grounds that they (plaintiff party) 'may' have to stand on is a case against their respective SLI committee for presentation of case/material. Outside of that, good luck.....it's a FEDERAL Arbitrator(s).

 

Just ask the guys hired at UAL in 85-86 time frame: growth trumps retirements 100 to 1. Guys hired in '85 saw United go from 4000 pilots to 10000 pilots and back to 6000 pilots, but still experienced a 50% growth in the base.

If we get this right and can start pulling on the same end of the rope growth can trump any expectations we had based on retirements for both pilot groups . . . and while I'm at it I'll point out that retirement expectations for any pilot are ridiculous 'cuz who honestly believes that CAL or UAL would have survived the next 2 decades as a stand alone entity. Stop chasing your tail. Look at the forest for the trees. What is it you really want and what is really within your grasp. Sitting on POS 02 or whatever backward looking position one takes will NOT get you your greatest future reward. Pulling together towards a common goal and working to bring everyone onboard will.

 

The US Air lawsuit was not dismissed based on merit, but based on not being ripe (the pilots had not yet been harmed), the lower court had already determined that the suit warranted a "day in court". As soon as the company accepts the revised seniority list, the pilots will have been "wronged" and a lawsuit will again proceed. The same will be true here. If a United pilot with 11 years with the company and 7 years of active service goes junior to a 5 year Continental pilot I assure you there will be lawsuits, and the only claim has to be that the merger committee/MEC did not present a "vigorous defensive" of their due seniority in the integration. The MEC at United is on record as stating that they have a legal obligation to represent all United pilots, including those furloughed, and thus far it certainly appears that they are. Not negotiating a contract before the merger close date is going to prove very costly for the company.

 

And this is why there are so many lawyers in the world. You go right ahead and throw your money at them. Don't get your hopes too high.

Someone also said that you can't get bumped out of base or seat. Basically no bump no flush during this merger. Don't count on that either. You see once it becomes final and the company starts moving aircraft then people start bidding their new found seniority and if you have a lot fo commuters then they may start moving into bases that they formerly didn't have. So you might not get bumped or flushed in the actual SLI but you may every bid after that. It's happenning here at DAL every time the company closes a category and opens a new one.

 

Closing of domiciles, equipment changes, and other management driven decisions will NOT be stopped no matter how the seniority lists are integrated. I was happily living in NY and flying out of JFK until I was slowly forced out and had to start commuting to IAD. Now I drive to LGA, fly to DCA, take the metro to West Falls and then the bus to IAD. So which is worse for my future. A company where a few CAL pilots get a slight "leg up" on my supposed relative seniority rights but a company that is growing and healthy with a strong balance sheet and excellent future prospects, or rather a company where I stagnate for a decade hovering just out of range of reserve and stay in the same seat for 13 years.

As for me:

I choose moving forward and taking my chances with my CAL brethren as a UNITED group even if that means some opening concessions as a measure of "good faith".

 

We're apparently in the same position seniority wise (& fleet/seat/domicile?). I agree with much of your post, HOWEVER, I am NOT willing to 'trade' any amount of my seniority to get this train rolling. Why? Because I DON'T HAVE TO! This JCBA should be about getting the contract done correctly. Our negotiated pay rates should be about codifying the BEST pay structure for the future, not about holding seniority hostage. Our seniority will be determined by a group of 3 -- based on arguments made by our merger committees. I STRONGLY advocate keeping the SLI & JCBA separate. If I 'lose' seniority, it BETTER NOT be because it was traded away in the JCBA just to grease the skids. On the other hand, I would accept the same outcome IF it was decided by the arbitrators during the SLI process. That's probably as clear as mud.

Sadly, I'm only 43 but can not see myself being 'proud' of any company I work for. I passed through a one way door in dealing with the abuses of this management team. My pride is in being a professional pilot, NOT in my company. I just don't see that changing. Regardless, the company will do as it wishes and be as successful and prosperous as management is capable of making it. Our only power, or lever, is to HURT the company. I'm not even talking about actively causing problems! A pilot group that knows (and FOLLOWS) their CBA is a big problem for UAL/CAL/UCAL. All things we do to IMPROVE the company are siphoned off or ****ed away by management. When we move in that direction we seem to hear "sorry, a contract is a contract...". A self leveling mechanism I guess?

I personally don't see why the CAL MEC/MC/NC won't agree to exclude the JCBA from SLI negotiations? What is the harm there? Doesn't the merger policy refer to 'pre-merger' considerations?

 

Thanks. I believe you are correct on those numbers. However, let's look out a bit furture than 8 years since many of us will still be here and we want to look at the entire picture rather than a myopic view.

Look on this forum under legacy retirements. If those numbers are correct, CAL retirements per year are mostly under 200. UAL hits 400-500+.

It just depends on what you want to look at.