CAL-UAL, who needs it?
11-09-2010 | 05:08 AM
#41
Fore!
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 505
Likes: 0
From: 756 F/O
And this is why there are so many lawyers in the world. You go right ahead and throw your money at them. Don't get your hopes too high.
Someone also said that you can't get bumped out of base or seat. Basically no bump no flush during this merger. Don't count on that either. You see once it becomes final and the company starts moving aircraft then people start bidding their new found seniority and if you have a lot fo commuters then they may start moving into bases that they formerly didn't have. So you might not get bumped or flushed in the actual SLI but you may every bid after that. It's happenning here at DAL every time the company closes a category and opens a new one.
Someone also said that you can't get bumped out of base or seat. Basically no bump no flush during this merger. Don't count on that either. You see once it becomes final and the company starts moving aircraft then people start bidding their new found seniority and if you have a lot fo commuters then they may start moving into bases that they formerly didn't have. So you might not get bumped or flushed in the actual SLI but you may every bid after that. It's happenning here at DAL every time the company closes a category and opens a new one.
11-09-2010 | 05:08 AM
#42
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Here, here!
Come on guys . . . take the high road for once in your life! Every day we bicker loses us all money. Think of it, you are giving up thousands of dollars a month in pay and benefits when the issues are truly insignificant. We are quickly becoming our own worst enemy. We all want the same result . . . a better life in the future, and without question that is within our grasp if we can get over this incredibly petty fight. I'm a United pilot with a reasonable expectation of making 400 captain for many years, but I will gladly trade a few percent seniority for a winning company of which I can be proud and a future with certainty that was lacking just a few months earlier. No matter how the chips fall you will not be pushed out of your domicile or seat and if we get this right your movement upward and forward can be greatly accelerated by the success of our Mega-carrier status. Aside from groveling on my hands and knees I don't know how to bring the nay-sayers on board other than to ask: What will make your future brightest, fighting til hell freezes over for 5% seniority or finding common ground and facing the corporation with a united front to demand the fair share we all lost in the decades past.
Man up. Get on board. Stop whining and fight for what is rightfully yours, but recognize that "we" (be that UAL or CAL) are NOT the enemy!
JP
Come on guys . . . take the high road for once in your life! Every day we bicker loses us all money. Think of it, you are giving up thousands of dollars a month in pay and benefits when the issues are truly insignificant. We are quickly becoming our own worst enemy. We all want the same result . . . a better life in the future, and without question that is within our grasp if we can get over this incredibly petty fight. I'm a United pilot with a reasonable expectation of making 400 captain for many years, but I will gladly trade a few percent seniority for a winning company of which I can be proud and a future with certainty that was lacking just a few months earlier. No matter how the chips fall you will not be pushed out of your domicile or seat and if we get this right your movement upward and forward can be greatly accelerated by the success of our Mega-carrier status. Aside from groveling on my hands and knees I don't know how to bring the nay-sayers on board other than to ask: What will make your future brightest, fighting til hell freezes over for 5% seniority or finding common ground and facing the corporation with a united front to demand the fair share we all lost in the decades past.
Man up. Get on board. Stop whining and fight for what is rightfully yours, but recognize that "we" (be that UAL or CAL) are NOT the enemy!
JP
11-09-2010 | 06:06 AM
#43
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 15
From: 737 CAPT
The US Air lawsuit was not dismissed based on merit, but based on not being ripe (the pilots had not yet been harmed), the lower court had already determined that the suit warranted a "day in court". As soon as the company accepts the revised seniority list, the pilots will have been "wronged" and a lawsuit will again proceed. The same will be true here. If a United pilot with 11 years with the company and 7 years of active service goes junior to a 5 year Continental pilot I assure you there will be lawsuits, and the only claim has to be that the merger committee/MEC did not present a "vigorous defensive" of their due seniority in the integration. The MEC at United is on record as stating that they have a legal obligation to represent all United pilots, including those furloughed, and thus far it certainly appears that they are. Not negotiating a contract before the merger close date is going to prove very costly for the company.
The case you are referring to was the West Pilots against USAPA. The West Pilots filed a DFR lawsuit. The pilots the court said had not yet been harmed are the West pilots NOT the East pilots. The court was not talking about the East pilots in this case. The Nicolau award list was thrown out by USAPA, but since the two groups are not yet merged under one JCBA the judge has indicated the West's case is not ripe. IF a new JCBA is ratified that uses a list other than the Nicolau award, then the West pilots would have been "wronged" and their case would be ripe for hearing.
This situation is different. We have agreements in place that state the SLI will not take place prior to the ratification of a JCBA. Should the SLI go to an arbitrator as 125% of us believe, it will be his binding decision on the groups. From what you are saying, your group is ready to use the USAirways East dictionary version of "binding" during the SLI? And what makes you think that when it goes to an arbitrator that both sides will not fight vigorously, vocally, and emphatically for their position? How could that result in a lawsuit over the SLI for lack of fair representation in the process? Or are you suggesting that the UAL folks will somehow perform below their best in order to have an argument to make if the SLI goes in a direction not to UAL pilots' liking?
11-09-2010 | 10:19 AM
#44
On Reserve
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
The US Air lawsuit was not dismissed based on merit, but based on not being ripe (the pilots had not yet been harmed), the lower court had already determined that the suit warranted a "day in court". As soon as the company accepts the revised seniority list, the pilots will have been "wronged" and a lawsuit will again proceed. The same will be true here. If a United pilot with 11 years with the company and 7 years of active service goes junior to a 5 year Continental pilot I assure you there will be lawsuits, and the only claim has to be that the merger committee/MEC did not present a "vigorous defensive" of their due seniority in the integration. The MEC at United is on record as stating that they have a legal obligation to represent all United pilots, including those furloughed, and thus far it certainly appears that they are. Not negotiating a contract before the merger close date is going to prove very costly for the company.
11-09-2010 | 11:26 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: Cap. 737
Actually, the answer is yes, and if I'm not mistaken, CAL folks moved backwards too, 2005 captains no longer sit in that seat, and in fact, isn't your most junior captain on property a 2000 hire?
Having said that, I'm not going so sit here and debate what the merged seniority list should look like or is going to look like. Why is anyone ruminating over how the merged list is going to end up when we have absolutely no control of it? It is a complete waste of energy and the acrimony that all this bickering among us is creating is nothing but counter productive and feeding right into management's hands.
But if you are determined to wind yourself around the axle, be my guest.
Having said that, I'm not going so sit here and debate what the merged seniority list should look like or is going to look like. Why is anyone ruminating over how the merged list is going to end up when we have absolutely no control of it? It is a complete waste of energy and the acrimony that all this bickering among us is creating is nothing but counter productive and feeding right into management's hands.
But if you are determined to wind yourself around the axle, be my guest.
Last edited by SKMarz; 11-09-2010 at 11:27 AM. Reason: typo
11-09-2010 | 11:38 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: Cap. 737
p.s. I'm in that group that will likely be stapled. I'm not the least bit happy about that prospect but someone once told me that anger and resentment is like swallowing poison and expecting the other person to die. I won't spend another second chewing on that poison, I've already done enough of that in the past 11 years.
11-09-2010 | 12:27 PM
#47
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 0
From: UAL retired
The following is an excerpt taken from the legal opinion written by the mediation board which developed the ISL for Delta/Northwest. Please note the reality of how they viewed the subject. No attempt to stack the deck will fool anybody, and you can bet your booty that smart people will work hard to make sure this is as equitable to all as possible. No one is going to get "stapled".
And for the record I am a UAL '96 hire and could have held captain from 1998 to 2003 then again from 2007 until the phasing out of the 737 fleet.
We have carefully reviewed the respective submissions, evidence and arguments submitted over the 12 days of hearings. In the course of constructing the ISSL, we have taken seriously the admonition of the ALPA Merger Policy to disrupt as little as possible the valid career expectations of pilots who have staked their professional lives on service to their respective companies. We have also recognized, as one must, that pre-merger expectations borne by both sides to this process will, in virtually all cases, be tempered and shaped by the realities of an enlarged, merged workforce. Notwithstanding months of vigorous negotiations and subsequent good faith participation in mediation efforts, the parties to this dispute are deeply divided, as is apparent from their respective proposals: Each does little more than stack the deck for their own constituencies in ways that are neither fair nor equitable. As will be discussed below, this Board has chosen a different approach, one that adopts a Ratio and Category basis, but with a simplified grouping of aircraft, a “Pull and Plug” adjustment mechanism that addresses Attrition considerations and a limited period of Conditions and Restrictions designed to deal with, among other things, fleet expansion and reduction.
And for the record I am a UAL '96 hire and could have held captain from 1998 to 2003 then again from 2007 until the phasing out of the 737 fleet.
11-09-2010 | 01:12 PM
#48
On Reserve
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Actually, the answer is yes, and if I'm not mistaken, CAL folks moved backwards too, 2005 captains no longer sit in that seat, and in fact, isn't your most junior captain on property a 2000 hire?
Having said that, I'm not going so sit here and debate what the merged seniority list should look like or is going to look like. Why is anyone ruminating over how the merged list is going to end up when we have absolutely no control of it? It is a complete waste of energy and the acrimony that all this bickering among us is creating is nothing but counter productive and feeding right into management's hands.
But if you are determined to wind yourself around the axle, be my guest.
Having said that, I'm not going so sit here and debate what the merged seniority list should look like or is going to look like. Why is anyone ruminating over how the merged list is going to end up when we have absolutely no control of it? It is a complete waste of energy and the acrimony that all this bickering among us is creating is nothing but counter productive and feeding right into management's hands.
But if you are determined to wind yourself around the axle, be my guest.
11-09-2010 | 01:16 PM
#49
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,086
Likes: 0
From: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
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