slyguy

So scope basically covers what kind of flying the regionals get to do? I.e. the size of the airplane and what routes?

gettinbumped

Exactly. Scope clauses are what allow United Express to fly as, well, United Express. The Scope part of the contract is what allows flying under the United banner to be done by pilots not on the United seniority list. There have been several relaxations of the United scope clause since the early-mid 1990's, when the RJ's first showed up in the industry. The first relaxation in 1995 allowed for a specific number of 50 seat RJ's that could be flown by the regionals. This was presented to the UAL pilot group by our MEC chairman at the time as "we can buy and fly RJ's or 777's, but not both. Which one do you want?". We chose the 777. Of course, the company was lying to us, and we never ordered the 777's. In 2000 we voted in a contract that allowed more 50 seat flying, and a continued small number of 70 seaters grandfathered in with Air Wisconsin. At the time, United was growing, and there were no furloughs, so it did not seem like it would be detrimental to the careers of those on the property. 9/11 happened, the economy took a dump, and we furloughed several thousand pilots. During that time, the company demanded that we give them a new contract, filed for Ch 11, and the company went bankrupt.

The company gave us a contract proposal, and told us that we could take it or take our chances with having the judge impose it on us. At that point, the judge had rubber stamped every single thing United had asked for, and there was a fear that he would do the same with the contract United wanted to impose. THAT contract had ZERO scope... in other words, United could fly any type, any size, and any number of jets for United Express they wanted. You would see A320's flying for Skywest right now if that had gone through. With that real threat on the table, we held our noses and voted in a contract that allowed for a huge increase in 70 seat RJ's. United parked hundreds of planes, and replaced them with pilots flying 70 seat RJ's for Express. 2000+ pilots were on the street. There were jobs negotiated for our furloughee's to go to the right seat of the RJ's at second year pay.

Finally, things started to turn around, and we recalled our furloughed brothers and sisters, and actually did a little hiring. Almost immediately, oil went to $140 a barrel, the geniuses at United hedged at high oil prices, so when oil crashed to $36 a barrel, United was paying BILLIONS is extra for fuel. The pilots again bore the brunt of that crappy decision. Another 1400+ pilots were furloughed as United parked another 100 planes, many of them for the second time. So here comes the present discussion. Our furloughed pilots are again offered jobs at second year RJ pay.... to do the same job they used to get paid 10 year mainline pay to do with mainline jets. It's insulting to them. It's basically saying "I'm ok with my job being outsourced". Now I don't begrudge any furloughee taking those jobs if they need/want them, but I will also support them 100% for telling United to go pee off and having the dignity to say "my skills and services are worth more than the pittance you want to pay me for them".

Mshunter got an earful because she made an assertion that the senior pilots at United voted themselves some sort of sweet deal at the expense of those furloughed pilots. Well, I'm making 50% less than I was in 2002, I'm working 20% more hours, I've lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in pension and stock, and have been bumped out of the seat I was holding twice. It's not like things are rosy anywhere on the seniority list. The #1 priority of the VAST majority of the pilots at UAL is to shore up scope in the new contract and get our brothers and sisters back in the cockpits of UNITED airlines where they belong. To suggest otherwise is ignorant, wrong, and insulting. Voicing opinions is fine, but if they are based on inaccuracies and heresy, expect a rather strong rebuttal.

jsled

<<<In 2000 we voted in a contract that allowed pretty much unlimited 50 seat flying, and a small number of 70 seaters>>>>>>

It certainly was not "unlimited" 50 seaters. They were still tied to the number of mainline jets in the fleet. And there were NO, repeat...NO 70 seaters allowed by Contract 2000. They were NEVER on the property before the bankruptcy contract (AIR Wiskey 146's excepted, but that was from the 1991 acquistion by N number).

Just the facts.

slyguy

Seems like there were some tough decisions to make, and in order to save a job, cuts had to be made.


Just as an FYI, I am good friends with mshunter. *HE* has been around the industry *HIS* whole life(his dad was TWA when they were still around, and eventually went to Unocal, then to Shamrock, etc. etc.), and I see many of his points as valid. But *HE* has a strange way of approaching things sometimes. I get his point and I get your's. I just don't agree with is approach sometimes. He has been more or less banned from the forum, which I feel was out of spite of members accusing him of starting a flame war. It was a good oportunity to teach him, rather than shun him, and I know he is reading this, so listen up dude!


Just look at it from his point of view for a second. He's not exactly wrong, and I can see how it would be tough for some to swallow and upset them. Like you said, you kind of got screwed with a smoke screen, but the one way I know to fix this is let the situation get to a strike. Being offered a job as an RJ pilot for someone who has been mainline for tha last ten years is a big smack to the face, I agree 100% there. And pay at the regional level is horrible. One of the reason I am hoping to avoid the regional's and get my time in a 135 enviroment then go to the majors. But, and this is a serious question, how else is pay going to improve at the regional level if the pilot group doesn't vote in better pay/work rules? Do the regional guys have their own contracts? Are the attached somehow to the majors other than by putting the name on the side of the airplane?

gettinbumped

Thanks for the catch. Correction above.

gettinbumped

Oops. I thought "Ms" was Ms.... as in, Miss/Mrs. My apologies.

I can't really address his point because, frankly, I couldn't even tell what he was talking about. What I could get out of it was insulting and inappropriate, and entirely inaccurate.

To answer your question: Unfortunately, you are correct that it looks like its going to come down to the threat of a strike. The pilots have little to no leverage to change things because we are governed by the RLA. Getting to strike, however, isn't as easy as deciding that one feels like it. It takes YEARS (usually) to get the NMB to release you to strike, and then the PEB has to allow it. The deck is stacked against labor here, and everyone knows it. Hopefully ALPA gets us released sooner rather than later, and I'm actively getting my strike fund maxed out so that I can weather whatever storm comes this way. It's ridiculous that the company can basically take what they want in Ch 11 and then continue to operate under that agreement for YEARS after the amendable date.

The way pay/workrules is going to improve at the regionals is eventually enough young people will realize that being an airline pilot isn't what it used to be. The brass ring of being a major airline pilot is tarnished, and smart young talent is probably better off doing something more lucrative and flying for the fun of it on the side. Once that cycles through over the years, the regionals will have a hard time attracting qualified pilots. You will have more and more Colgan type incidents, and eventually blood shed will force change. The change to age 65 put this on pause for a few years, but at some point its going to become a reality.

At the same time, its up to US at the major airlines to lock down scope and move the regional flying back to pilots on mainline lists. The irony? It will be more economical for the company. As oil goes up, the 50 seat RJ becomes a financial anchor, regardless of how much the pilots are paid. The 70 seater isn't too terribly far behind. That's why the airlines want scope relaxed on the 90-100 seaters so badly.... and that is why they will NEVER get it.

The regional airline pilots all have their own contracts, and they negotiate those independently. They get whipsawed just as we do. If they want the contract flying, they have to do it cheaply, and the company will come to them and tell them without wage concessions etc., it won't happen. See what just happened to Horizon with Skywest getting their jets to fly their routes for cheaper if you need an example.

furloughforlife

That's a great summary of the last 15 years and the scope issue. Thanks, gettinbumped. And I never forget that the pain is real all the way up the list. The amount of real money lost is unbelievable. Guys like me just lost a dream.

FurloughedX2

Gettingbumped, that did spell it all out for everyone. Well said, well spoken. We all got F'd. Furloughforlife, don't give up hope bro, with the forecast retirements and, an eventually improving economy, we will get some of our dream back. (I'm an eternal optimist, I can't help it) How much of that dream depends on how management handles this contract and, in particular, the scope portion. Keep the faith!