Well put. And I totally agree.

Neither should the $31 an hour. You should get "recalled/hired" at the higher of your last UAL rate or the longevity rate at CAL that applies. So if you were getting paid at 8 year UAL rates, you will get paid at the higher of that rate or 8 year CAL rates until the CAL rates catch up to the UAL rate. Hopefully we have a JCBA before that would kick in anyway and that is all moot.

ALPA should merge the seniority lists now.
Then the company can't whipsaw the pilot groups against each other. The negotiating committee then will know what to negotiate and will have a United front behind them.
Let's write the last chapter to this murder mystery ourselves. It's time we get our act together and quit waiting for the company to do something.

What, are you scared of the outcome?

Let's not become another USAirways.

Um, that's why they're NOT doing the SLI now, it would turn into us air!

It's great news indeed. Odd how the info is saying between 100-200 pilots when the system bid actually shows 201 vacancies. Of course if they say 200 then it should be 400 but glad to see this being worked out and offered to the UAL guys and gals.

Well... even being at the bottom of CALS list.. for now... if they are going to get paid on their correct longevity level..... its probably better than still sitting at home if their desire is to ever come back...its a positive step at least.

Let's be clear, we were not furloughed from Continental, hence, this is NOT a recall. In fact no where in the T&P agreement is it referred to anything other than a "job opportunity". It is no different then a furloughee getting hired at another part 121 outfit. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy if this means somebody can work but this is outright misrepresentation and a lie by our MEC.

Sorry to throw cold water on the party. I'll celebrate when we are recalled to the CAREER that has been lost. Until then, we are just practicing for an SLI with a big ol' staple gun involved.

KC

Pay Rates
 

I thought it was your last UAL pay rate or whatever your CAL Longevity (1st year), whichevr is higher. In most cases, the UAL rate is higher.

I hope I am reading this wrong?????

UAL hires
 

Most of us UAL furloughees are not young guys, we have families and need medical coverage from day one. As far as I know, we will get that..

Jeffie wants the CAL contract for everyone. No one is agreeing so he is just moving flying and personnel to the contract side that he desires.

I cannot believe that the UAL MEC views this as some sort of "victory". It is a failure if anything. Talk of parking Airbuses and 757's, furloughees going to the other " subsidiary", and, very likely, more furloughs at United this winter as a result.

If you are at the bottom of the UA list, the senior furloughee will be working this winter for the "other subsidiary" when you get your furlough notice. Good work MEC.

Victory is ours - you gotta be kidding me.

PIPE

PIPE,

On the surface it sure looks like things could go that way.

However, no worries as the legal team back in Herndon has our back... :eek:

SP

7-B. Job Opportunities.
(i) If either Continental or United intends to hire new Pilots, it will first offer
employment to fill such positions in seniority order to Pilots on furlough from the
other Airline. Acceptance or rejection of such an offer or failure to qualify will
not affect a Pilot’s recall rights or placement on the Integrated Seniority List
(which shall be based upon his seniority position at the Pilot’s originating
Airline). A Pilot accepting an offer under this provision will be subject to the
normal background and employment requirements of the employing Airline. The
Pilot will be an employee of the employing Airline, within the applicable ALPA
council for that Airline, but will not be required to serve or complete a probation
period. Such Pilot will be paid the greater of (1) the actual hourly pay rate he
was receiving on the date of his furlough, or (2) the hourly pay rate to which his
years of service at the employing Airline otherwise entitles.(ii) No Pilot shall be entitled to more than two (2) offers of employment pursuant
to this Section 7-B. If a Pilot declines the first offer, the employing Airline will
not contact him for a second offer until he provides at least thirty (30) days notice
to the employing Airline in writing of his desire to re-enter the hiring process. At
that time he will be eligible for the next available offer in seniority order.
(iii) Pilots employed pursuant to this Section 7-B will exercise seniority for all
purposes at the employing Airline in the seniority order of their originating
Airline but junior to all Pilots who were on the seniority list of the employing
Airline prior to the Merger Agreement Date. Upon implementation of the ISL
Pilots will exercise seniority pursuant to their position on the ISL. All Pilots hired
by the employing Airline after the Merger Agreement Date who are not Pilots
employed pursuant to this Section 7-B will exercise their seniority for all purposes
junior to all Pilots who were on either seniority list prior to the Merger Agreement
Date.
(iv) Notwithstanding Section 27, Part 2.A.2, B.2 or C.2 of the Continental CBA, all
Pilots on either the United Pilots’ or Continental Pilots’ Seniority List as of the
Effective Date of this Agreement employed by Continental shall be eligible for
Medical, Dental and Vision Plan coverage on the Pilot’s first day of Active Service

As CAL feels they need pilots, the other option would be to hire off the street. This is what the company would prefer to do. I agree that it's going to be a total cluster when the TPA expires, but it would have been worse without this provision. This is a GOOD thing for the furloughees, many of whom are friends. Those that don't think so are under no obligation to take the position offered.

Here are a few questions that come to mind:

1. What are the chances of getting longevity credit for furlough time ala Delta when the new contract comes around?

2. When a new contract is eventually signed, will guys out on furlough (voluntary or otherwise) be included in any signing / ratification bonus?

3. Would we fall under CAL's B plan or continue to be funded under UAL's B/C Plan?

4. Is vacation accrual also include UAL longevity?



I would like to be on one list or the other when it comes time to vote on a TA.

I agree that this should have been done this past spring. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't a bone tossed our way in lieu of the door paperings. I hope the 200 or so bring a strong desire to be treated and compensated as pilots for the number one carrier in the world. You're going to find out in short order just how bad the reserve policy is. Hang in there.....and welcome. Hope to fly with some of you this fall.

Hate to break the news to you....But CAL and UAL are part of the same company. If this was not a recall there would be interviews required and I suspect some would not be hired. Just the law of averages and attitudes.

You can turn your back on the opportunity. This is one of the few things ALPA was able to secure. Would you have rather had newhires off the street sitting in those seats while our furloughs while away waiting on mother UAL? Maybe you could go kick your dog and make you day happier. Let the guys that want the job over what they are doing now enjoy something. I bet you are real fun guy on New Years Eve.

L

Pilot Pay Rates
 

Such Pilot will be paid the greater of (1) the actual hourly pay rate he
was receiving on the date of his furlough, or (2) the hourly pay rate to which his years of service at the employing Airline otherwise entitles.

As far as I see it, this means your UAL pay rate or your new longevity at CAL (employing Airline). Please tell me I am wrong..

Cynical, but I wonder if it is a hardening of their no-need-for-laber-to-be-on-board position due to the door paperings. C02 was passed partly by getting very junior pilots to believe that they would get furloughed again. Why not get a bunch of just-furloughed pilots back on the property then threaten to send them right back to the street if their substandard proposal is voted down. They only need 50%+1. This plus the $250K offered for early retirement might get them there.

L-
And I suppose Eastern/Continental were the same company as well? I guess we can just call back the negotiators and skip SLI altogether while were at it because its over, were all part of the same company now, we've "recalled" our furloughees? Maybe that is how you see it, but as a double furloughee, one paragraph in a Transition Agreement does not make for integration.

They are going to hire off the street anyway when the time comes. But seriously, I'm happy if some of us are able to utilize this job opportunity. Is it better then a lump on the head, yes. However in the meantime, we need to quit selling this as something it is NOT. All it does is give the company permission to continue cannibalizing of the UAL side in favor of the CAL side. Somehow I think the AFA understands this better then we do.

KC

Place your bets
 

Question for any UA furloughee:

What year longevity were you last furloughed from? And what Year were you hired?

Next Question for everyone:

Any guesses on how many callls it will take to get 200 UA pilots?
(Sr. involuntary furlough number is 6443(8/99), last on list is 7666
(3/08))

My guess: 800 / or #7243 on the list (8/00)

Not sure what you are talking about here. CAL and EAL didn't merge. The AFA's deal is different because almost everyone on furlough was senior and voluntary.

I actually think it will STOP some of the cannibalization, as pilots will continue to hold recall rights at UAL. When recalled there, they will need to be retrained. This is why CAL held off as long as they possibly could (according to CAL pilots) to "recall". It would be much easier for them to just get new hires on the property.

My $.02 worth.

Don't overlook the probability of senior "volunteers" electing to return.

3rd year pay due to being off the property for 7 of the 10 years / hired 5/01

I feel sorry for anyone who takes junior 737 at CAL with our staffing and rules.

Please elaborate.

It's not going to take 800. My guess is they'll go through 400 or so before they fill the hole. Maybe not even that many.

Why? Because it's $hitty out here. Many furloughees/double furloughees are living paycheck to paycheck--if they're lucky to have a job. Lots of Mr. Moms. Even $75/hr at CAL will be more than twice what some furloughees are presently making.

It's reality, folks. It sucks out here.

SCR

Ottopilot,

Could you (or anyone) direct us potential jr reserves toward information on what our work lives would be like? I'm looking for a bulletized summary of reserve rules at CAL, not necessarily the whole contract (though any info would be helpful to start the decision process).

Thanks, dc

I was on 2nd year pay (757/767), hired 11/2000. (On second furlough now).

I hope it will take about 800 calls to get to the 200 UA pilots, but I doubt it. I think it will be closer to 400-500 since times are so hard. It just depends on how many were able to return to the military or get jobs vs. how many are still unemployed. As I am still unemployed, I will definitely take this job if offered, however I doubt I'll make this recall. If they hire another 200 after this, I think I'll get the call. Though I'm not holding my breath that there will be another 200 anytime soon since it is in their best interest to bring back as few UA pilots as possible. :mad:

The uinon put out a little cliffs notes version of our scheduling section. If I can find an electronic version of it I will send it off to ya.

Bottom line is reserve sucks especially in the summer. Being a junior line holder isn't a huge leap in QOL, but it helps.

-A reserve 9 hour callout
-B reserve 2 hour callout
-12 Days off min
-You're screwed
-76 hr Guarantee
-Movable and Immovable days off.
-Scheduling can roll your movable days off.
-Aggressive pickup windows for A is before B (can't remember details on exact time 11a (A) 12p (B) I think) Self assign trips if you feel inclined...You will still be responsible for your call time though...crappy
-Scheduling assigns open time by 3pm for the next day.
-You're screwed

How hard is it to hold CLE, especially after a shakedown and shuffle with 200 pilots added.

Some rules that will surprise in comparison to any other airline, including regionals, greatly affecting QOL:

- No fixed callout period for the month. They will change it day to day. Today you're in the late callout period to cover the redeye so you sleep as late as you can. They call at 6pm releasing you to 9 hours of rest to a new 3am callout period. You can't sleep again of course and of course they call at 3am and assign you a Whitlow duty day. Or worse they assign you the 3am callout so you go to sleep early the night before then they call at 6am after you're totally rested and release you to 9 hours of rest to fly the redeye that night. It wrecks your sleep cycle. The circadian cycle does not exist.

- Little limit to moving your work days. There are 8 days off that are untouchable. All other days off are soft and they can move work onto these days with no limit. You may have a work block that is 3 days long, followed by 2 soft days off. At the end of the 3 day trip they will "roll" your days off and assign you work on what were days off. They will keep doing this until they hit a legal limit of some kind.

- The FAR 24-hour break in 7 days of work can be given downline. So you can start out on a 3-day trip and be out much longer, with your 24-hour break in an exotic locale, not at home. [UAL's break "in domicile" is a contractual provision that isn't in CAL's contract][also, the new FAA rest reg requires 30 hours (vs 24) off per 7 day lookback "in domicile"--will be a big change at CAL]

- Because of this unlimited flexibility you are obligated to check your schedule for changes each day at 1500 before a work block begins, even though this is a day off. Since there is no set callout period for the month you can't just enjoy your days off and turn your phone on when your callout period starts. They can assign you a trip which you have to check for and checkin for on your day off. It's like being on call on your day off since you are obligated to check. This also applies to each day you're on call. You have to check each day at 1500 even if it during the 9 hours of rest because they can and will change your callout period day by day. There is no predictability. It's like they're calling audibles to you during a 2-minute drill, except it's not for just 2 minutes.

- Long call can be converted to short call at any time and with no limit, so it's nearly useless. Aside from the fact that they assign trips to long calls before short calls, once they run out of short call reserves they'll call a long call reserve and assign them to short call. If you're a commuter instead of commuting in for a trip you'll be commuting in to sit short call at a hotel at your expense. This can done without limit. Since long call is only a 9-hour callout it can be unworkable as a commuter anyway. A 10pm call to show up at 7am? Not a lot of flights operating between those hours for a commute.

This isn't meant to be a Debbie Downer, but it is the reality of QOL. You truly fly to FAR limits round the clock. There are some, very few, two (?) abuses which can result in extra pay, but they won't pay unless you make a claim, and even then the claim has to be made with certain narrow windows of time on the 24 hour clock or else it will be denied. Unreal, but true. Even though UCAL is an "IT company with planes" (their characterization) apparently they're not techie enough to comply with federal law of paying for work performed. The new rest rules should have some affect on making life better on reserve.

If you are a furloughed UA pilot, it would be almost impossible. CLE has virtually no movement because guys based there almost never leave. CLE FOs wait for a captain to retire or leave by natural causes (hate to say) to upgrade there. This bid shows the CLE base will have 2 captain vacancies and and 2 FO vacancies. Not counting anyone leaving the captain or FO seats that will essentially create 4 FO vacancies.

From the last system bid that opened LAX, 15 FOs were displaced out of CLE as those FOs were no longer needed to do the IRO slots on the Hawaii flying that will be fully shifted to the LAX base. I haven't analyzed the last system bid results but I have heard that a couple of CLE guys went out to LAX voluntarily but that around a dozen junior FOs were still displaced. You can bet those same CO pilots are chomping at the bit for those 2-4 FO slots this bid will result in in order to get back to CLE. Again there could be more slots if some of the CA or FOs out there bid for other planes, but I wouldn't count on mass movement in the CLE pilot base. Hasn't happened historically there.

Sorry to bring that news, but I didn't just want to give a flip answer like "Almost impossible" without giving the full context of the answer. Wish you luck though.

What do the reserve staffing levels look like? Just looking at EWR, how many 737 pilots are based there and how do the numbers break down in terms of liner holders vs. # of reserves?

Does the company publish reserve useage...monthly hours flown by the reserves?

Reserve are generally 10% of the total pilots. 360 EWR 737 FOs.

The union has the flight hour numbers but averages don't tell the story. Once they've got a reserve on a trip there is a tendency to keep using him vice using a fresh, much lower time reserve, because they tend to hold a non-flying reserve back just in case. Kind of like hoarding, except with human beings. Consequently you can have guy breaking min guarantee of 72 hours, while another hasn't flown in 6 weeks.

Good lord. It is no wonder you guys have some junior Captains. I am not sure that 4 stripes is worth dealing with that!!

UAL Rsv highlights:

long call: 13 hour call out

short call: 4 hour call out
everyone is long call until assigned a short call. cs usually builds the short calls at 7am, but can build them anytime. They usually assign them at 1pm domicile time the day prior.

reserve pick up option: allows you to pick up a trip in open time 28 hrs prior to departure on the computer without crew sched involvement.


12 days off are fixed in the domestic operation. They cannot be moved

the 24 hours off in 7 days is in domicile on reserve. Lineholders can check a box to waive this, but reserves cannot. So, max rsv days in a row is 6

reserves get 14 hours block to block rest in domicile. this cannot be waived by pilot, but can be waived by crew sched if "only rsv available"

i have been on rsv for the last 5 years. It sucks, but nothing like I am reading about CAL. Using the reserve pick up option, I have gone some months without even talking to cs. My days off are fixed, and my days on are spent on a "normal" trip most months. This is all DOMESTIC. Intl' rules are different.

Sled

8 yr pay, Nov 99 furloughee (involuntary). Not planning on taking it.

I'd wager they will call most of the list. A lot more have moved on that don't frequent this forum. Also, most of us really don't want to commute to reserve again. My 2 cents.

Are you guys flying the 737 LAX-HI with an IRO? IOW, doing turns with 3 pilots? Just curious.

Sled

EWR,

Sorry if this has already been posted, but I did not see the closing date on the new bid. What date do they run the bid awards, and post the results for the CAL pilots? Do they show the unfilled vacancies after the bid runs like UAL did? Seems like the best way to know what bases will likely be offered to UAL pilots will be determined by that list if it is done that way at CAL.

Thanks for all the very helpful information you, and so many other CAL pilots have provided!

SP

***** Disregard *****

Already answered by CAL on UAL/CAL forum;

Awards on July 26th.
Unfilled openings by Base, Equipment, Seat will be posted at that time as well.

SP

CAL's is not for commuters. The pilots didn't have any long call until the most recent contract so they didn't even really know what to ask for (apparently). Nine-hour callout is not a commuting callout. It is simply 24 hours on call and you go into FAA min rest when called. That's it. Just min rest. 13 hours actually gives you time to commute.

CAL's are mostly short call with a 3-hour to push callout. This really puts it down to a 2 to 2 1/2 hour call out because you have to get to ops to checkin on the company computer, get your flight kit, check vfile, etc and block out 3 hours after the call. It's a very short leash. Assigned at 1500 or after you block it, whichever is later.

Reserves can pickup after 9am the day before, not 28 hours. And a reserve cannot do anything without talking to cs. You always have to talk to cs for anything as a reserve. It is one of the things that make you feel under their thumb. One cs interprets one way, another cs another. The application of "policies" in the blank areas of the contract can be wide.

Eight days fixed. Pilot can move them but if he does they become unfixed, so not a good idea to move them.

Pretty much same, except 24 hours off can be anywhere, for anybody.

Ha! You've got to be kidding. No wonder negotiations stalled when they got to scheduling section. CAL is 10 (11 in EWR) min for both lineholders and reserve. One way cs can get around even this for reserves is to keep adding to the trip so that even though it overnights in a domicle, since it part of a trip, you don't get in domicle rest (but they do have to give you a hotel).

For the lineholder if he doesn't put a larger number in his PBS monthly bid, PBS will give him a redeye, min rest in base, and then start another trip that night. Block in at 6am, block out at 4pm. Fun, fun, everyone's looking forward to the weekend, weekend.

If I read the UAL contract correctly, UAL pilots must have 16 hours no duty before a redeye. CAL works pilots out to the west coast in the morning, min rest, and then redeye back that night--with another leg after the redeye at times. In fact, as long as it doesn't exceed the duty day, CAL will work right into a redeye (late IAH-PHX, one hour on the ground, redeye).

If only we can hang on to this in the JCBA. It might actually cause some seat movement. There are a lot of FOs parked in senior spots because no one wants to sit reserve.

When the company said they were going to take the best of both worlds in the JCBA, I'm sure "best" to them was CAL's work rules. I'm glad it's not going that way. Imagining QOL at CAL is like trying to imagine military basic training before you go. You really can't comprehend what you've gotten into until you're in the middle of it. If the unions can't get UAL workrules, and much better I hope, in the JCBA it's going to be a miserable 10 years for a lot of people.

You simply can't imagine.