TPA expires, basing changes
10-29-2011 | 08:54 AM
#41
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Retired 121 pilot
jaykris,
Status quo under the RLA basically means both sides will continue to abide by the CBA during section 6. Neither side can attempt to influence the negotiations through actions outside the scope of the current CBA.
The TPA is basically a 3 way agreement that attaches itself to the individual CBA's. Both sides are bound by it.
While I doubt anyone would debate the fact UCH 's invoking the "partial termination" provision would not be change and perhaps influence negotiations, it would not be a change in the "status quo" since the TPA is an agreed to addition to the CBA for conduct during the merger transition. Any actions mgmt takes within the latitude provided them is not a violation.
Sucks, huh!
Lee
Status quo under the RLA basically means both sides will continue to abide by the CBA during section 6. Neither side can attempt to influence the negotiations through actions outside the scope of the current CBA.
The TPA is basically a 3 way agreement that attaches itself to the individual CBA's. Both sides are bound by it.
While I doubt anyone would debate the fact UCH 's invoking the "partial termination" provision would not be change and perhaps influence negotiations, it would not be a change in the "status quo" since the TPA is an agreed to addition to the CBA for conduct during the merger transition. Any actions mgmt takes within the latitude provided them is not a violation.
Sucks, huh!
Lee
10-29-2011 | 09:10 AM
#42
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Joined: Jan 2006
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F
1. They will pay industry standard. Not a penny more or less. Delta and American is our competition and soon he believes they will remove American from the comparison when they get done making cuts. Southwest is a different animal and we could pay their 737 rates but it would come out of wide body rates. There is money in the budget for pilot pay raises but how to spread it around is the issue. Staffing is the big hurdle. Once you get staffing the rest of the contract would go fast. If staffing requires 10% more pilots then those additional pilot costs come out of the hourly rates available. The company wants to staff efficiently and use the money for hourly rates. The union wants more bodies on the property.
1. They will pay industry standard. Not a penny more or less. Delta and American is our competition and soon he believes they will remove American from the comparison when they get done making cuts. Southwest is a different animal and we could pay their 737 rates but it would come out of wide body rates. There is money in the budget for pilot pay raises but how to spread it around is the issue. Staffing is the big hurdle. Once you get staffing the rest of the contract would go fast. If staffing requires 10% more pilots then those additional pilot costs come out of the hourly rates available. The company wants to staff efficiently and use the money for hourly rates. The union wants more bodies on the property.
2. We are finally going to charge more than is costs for a ticket. We are going to make a little money in the bad times and kick A** in the good times.
3. He wants the 70 seat RJ’s because of the 1st class demanded by high paying customers. He is not sure we even need 90 seat jets.
3. He wants the 70 seat RJ’s because of the 1st class demanded by high paying customers. He is not sure we even need 90 seat jets.
5. Profit Sharing for the CAL pilots will be used as leverage at the table. (the checkairman personally thinks we will get it based on the tone of the profit sharing discussions at the meeting.)
10-29-2011 | 10:28 AM
#44
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Joined: Jun 2011
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[QUOTE=MXDUDE;1076912]
Many parts of the equation are missing. SWA and UCAL are like apples and oranges(SWA mgmt wants to run a functional corp). When I was a newbie I believed the BS about SWA model of efficiency to justify SWA's contract, but no more. Obviously a contract can be to expensive, but I'm never going to let mgmt poor mouth me into voting on a substandard contract. The fact that the US legacy carriers have a monopoly now makes this even more true. According to mgmt, UCAL's international flying is premium. "than mgmt why am I making 30% less than a SWA pilot with 3-4 fewer days off". Our 777 pilots make less. Yet five years ago SWA's #1 mgmt guy made the same as CAL's #4 guy.
Everyone seems to forget this. SWA pilots are paid the most because they are the most efficient. UAL will have X amount of dollars to pay enough pilots for the company. We can either be more efficient and make more money (like SWA), or be less efficient and make less money (like we currently do). The company is fine either way. They care about the bottom line. It is our choice which one we are more interested in.
One of my favorite phrases of wisdom is to always try and understand a problem from the other person's point of view. I think everyone needs to understand this before completely shooting down the need for 70 seat jets.
I am all for profit sharing. I would much rather have some sort of control over how much money I would make. I think management would be more interested in paying pilots more when they are doing well, and less when the company is not doing so well. This would help discourage the work slowdowns and ****ing away of efficiency we have noticed more and more. Ask a SWA pilot how much they see this happen over there. And yet we all wonder why they make more money.
One of my favorite phrases of wisdom is to always try and understand a problem from the other person's point of view. I think everyone needs to understand this before completely shooting down the need for 70 seat jets.
I am all for profit sharing. I would much rather have some sort of control over how much money I would make. I think management would be more interested in paying pilots more when they are doing well, and less when the company is not doing so well. This would help discourage the work slowdowns and ****ing away of efficiency we have noticed more and more. Ask a SWA pilot how much they see this happen over there. And yet we all wonder why they make more money.
10-29-2011 | 10:47 AM
#45
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From: B737 CAPT IAH
13-A. Partial Termination. Unless the Parties agree otherwise, the Airline Parties may jointly terminate the provisions of Sections 4-D (Domiciles), 7-A (Furlough with regard to United Pilots only), 7-C (Flying Ratios), 7-D (Domicile and Base Protection), and 9 (ALPA Travel), individually or collectively, at any time on or after December 31, 2011, if the parties have not reached a tentative agreement on a JCBA by that date.
Lee
10-29-2011 | 11:04 AM
#46
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Joined: Jun 2009
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WN pilots more "efficient"? Incestial breeding hog excrement.
CAL 777 pilots at one time flew EWR-HKG-EWR as a 3 day trip with an 18 hour layover at the airport. PBS (the value of which was intentionally way understated by management and tremendously under valued by CAL negotiators that caved on Contract '02) builds every line to minimize needed "man days". This past summer I was able to bid more consecutive days off in a row than I have ever been awarded on a month where PBS puts work days immediately adjacent to vacation time.
The key difference is, that the WN pilots are paid incrementally more for additional effort. Our current management expects that effort for no additional compensation and in some cases they try to demand it for nothing, or resort to intimidating it out of pilots.
CAL 777 pilots at one time flew EWR-HKG-EWR as a 3 day trip with an 18 hour layover at the airport. PBS (the value of which was intentionally way understated by management and tremendously under valued by CAL negotiators that caved on Contract '02) builds every line to minimize needed "man days". This past summer I was able to bid more consecutive days off in a row than I have ever been awarded on a month where PBS puts work days immediately adjacent to vacation time.
The key difference is, that the WN pilots are paid incrementally more for additional effort. Our current management expects that effort for no additional compensation and in some cases they try to demand it for nothing, or resort to intimidating it out of pilots.
10-29-2011 | 12:21 PM
#47
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Joined: Jun 2011
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WN pilots more "efficient"? Incestial breeding hog excrement.
CAL 777 pilots at one time flew EWR-HKG-EWR as a 3 day trip with an 18 hour layover at the airport. PBS (the value of which was intentionally way understated by management and tremendously under valued by CAL negotiators that caved on Contract '02) builds every line to minimize needed "man days". This past summer I was able to bid more consecutive days off in a row than I have ever been awarded on a month where PBS puts work days immediately adjacent to vacation time.
The key difference is, that the WN pilots are paid incrementally more for additional effort. Our current management expects that effort for no additional compensation and in some cases they try to demand it for nothing, or resort to intimidating it out of pilots.
CAL 777 pilots at one time flew EWR-HKG-EWR as a 3 day trip with an 18 hour layover at the airport. PBS (the value of which was intentionally way understated by management and tremendously under valued by CAL negotiators that caved on Contract '02) builds every line to minimize needed "man days". This past summer I was able to bid more consecutive days off in a row than I have ever been awarded on a month where PBS puts work days immediately adjacent to vacation time.
The key difference is, that the WN pilots are paid incrementally more for additional effort. Our current management expects that effort for no additional compensation and in some cases they try to demand it for nothing, or resort to intimidating it out of pilots.
10-29-2011 | 05:29 PM
#48
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The current management does not have to intimidate anyone for additional flying. It is done happily, willingly, and with great gusto by numerous VJMs, CAs in right seat, and pilots who have simply given up on the collective. Much of it is done on days off with straight pay.
Through short staffing, natural disaster, and poor planning the current management knows one thing, and one thing alone--the on time checks are still deposited into employee accounts last month, this month, and every month.
10-29-2011 | 06:09 PM
#49
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Joined: Nov 2010
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From: 787 CA
Everyone seems to forget this. SWA pilots are paid the most because they are the most efficient. UAL will have X amount of dollars to pay enough pilots for the company. We can either be more efficient and make more money (like SWA), or be less efficient and make less money (like we currently do). The company is fine either way. They care about the bottom line. It is our choice which one we are more interested in..
10-29-2011 | 06:26 PM
#50
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Joined: Nov 2010
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From: 787 CA
I wonder how the 1400 UAL furloughees felt about the decision to ousource all the UAL 737 flying? Somehow I don't think "wise" would be included in their vocabulary when describing their feelings on the situation. I also have several favorite "phrases of wisdom" I try to impart on guys like you who spend all their time "understanding" management's point of view, but somehow I don't think you'd like to hear them...
Last edited by 13n144e; 10-29-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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