Who lost What?
11-30-2011 | 09:23 AM
#31
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From: A-320 Capt
This is something that ALPA should be distributing to all pilots so they can have an inteligent discussion with co-workers that might be giving pilots a hard time for demanding to much at their expense. It would be nice to pull out a wallet sized card that shows exactly how much each group gave up when the discussions arise.
TW
11-30-2011 | 09:33 AM
#32
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From: A-320 Capt
What I like is the fact you are going to engage in direct conversations with the work groups named above and think they give one tiny speck of sh!t about what you lost. In their opinion they think you are taking too much pay right now that be should be redistributed to them. After all an FA is gone as much, without mechanics you could not read USA Today at fl390, without lav dumpers the planes would overflow with tilton, ect...ect....ect... They will not hear any of your logic "cold hard numbers" or not.
You and your future battles would be better off trying unify this "union". That means telling the regurgitation of self serving agenda crap, know as the MEC, to go pound sand. Dump the old guard starting at the LEC level and elect people that don't play grab a$$ politics and then vote in people that want to unify and fight. That means including everybody's concerns....like the twice furloughed. Anyone that has picked up overtime, accepted junior man, agreed to waive anything, ect. is helping managment and hurting fellow brothers and our unity. To be blunt these are facts this pilot group is too stupid to figure out.
You and your future battles would be better off trying unify this "union". That means telling the regurgitation of self serving agenda crap, know as the MEC, to go pound sand. Dump the old guard starting at the LEC level and elect people that don't play grab a$$ politics and then vote in people that want to unify and fight. That means including everybody's concerns....like the twice furloughed. Anyone that has picked up overtime, accepted junior man, agreed to waive anything, ect. is helping managment and hurting fellow brothers and our unity. To be blunt these are facts this pilot group is too stupid to figure out.
I'm in contact with other employees all the time, as are you. I don't have adversarial personal relationships with any of them. You're right in thinking that they don't get it, for the most part. But there are those that do.
As I've said more than once, I'm not out to do battle with other employees. And I'm an active member of the UAL ALPA Family Awareness committee. What are you doing for your brethren?
TW
11-30-2011 | 09:44 AM
#33
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From: Bus FO for now..but #2 in the Turkmenistan Airlines hiring pool...#1 is a goat
I'm in contact with other employees all the time, as are you. I don't have adversarial personal relationships with any of them. You're right in thinking that they don't get it, for the most part. But there are those that do.
As I've said more than once, I'm not out to do battle with other employees. And I'm an active member of the UAL ALPA Family Awareness committee. What are you doing for your brethren?
TW
As I've said more than once, I'm not out to do battle with other employees. And I'm an active member of the UAL ALPA Family Awareness committee. What are you doing for your brethren?
TW
As for what am I doing for my brothers? I NEVER fly overtime! I NEVER accept junior man! I NEVER waive ANYTHING! I drop as much as I can. I pay my dues. I attend most meeting. I submit resolutions and take an active part in my council. THAT is what matters most. Do that and you really can make a differance. Maybe you allready do. That is what we can ALL do to REALLY help my brethren. I can not stand the view that if you are not an officer or the likes then your opinion means less. That is one of the reasons why our union is SO disfuntional.
Btw. I have served on 2 different commititees but I would never try to use that to belittle someone else's opinion. That would be arrogant.
Last edited by MILUAL; 11-30-2011 at 10:20 AM.
11-30-2011 | 10:09 AM
#34
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From: A-320 Capt
Even if they SAY they understand, or care, they don't. Your relationship with them will be better off just being nice and respectful. Even on the minuscule chance they heard and agreed with any of your points then that would mean nothing. Not one damn thing...at all. Be nice and it will do more.
TW
11-30-2011 | 07:27 PM
#35
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From: A-320 Capt
Btw. I have served on 2 different commititees but I would never try to use that to belittle someone else's opinion. That would be arrogant.
Those that beyaatch about how things are but don't do anything to make it better are part of the problem, not part of the solution, wouldn't you agree? I'm just trying to be part of the solution.
TW
12-05-2011 | 04:57 PM
#36
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From: B737 CAPT IAH
TW,
Haven't been on for awhile so excuse me for not getting into the fray.
Anyway, the numbers posted were based on both the information provided by UAL in their court documents and BTS data.
No, the other work groups won't ever get it. But, if one employee group saved the airline (while of course, taking a huge leap to save a pension that was gone), that was the pilots. The mistakes made are water under the bridge but give pilots a position to negotiate from.
Of course, I'd never try to argue that to any other group....just negotiate for us in that same light with the figures to back it. Just because gave up way more has nothing to do with our interaction with other employee groups. Don't expect a thank you or anything from any of them. Just remember, those other groups enjoy the things pilots get right, or wrong, in terms of scope, etc. The really don't go there and, I suppose, have you to thank or blame, as the situation determines.
Those numbers I provided go to the negotiating table with all the rest IMO.
As to other groups, I never allowed their whining to sucker me into that argument.....except for once. This was back in the "hay-day" of the ESOP. FA complaining about what she made (I was still on probation making half of her pay...didn't mention that). My approach was, of course back in the day of printed apps, etc., "so, you filled out the same application I did, on line three when it asked what job you were applying for and had a box to check next to pilot, mechanic, FA, etc., what did you check?" Her answer, " FA." I asked "why didn't you check pilot because you know they make more.....?" Her answer, " because I"M NOT QUALIFIED."
Discussion over.
Frats,
Lee
Haven't been on for awhile so excuse me for not getting into the fray.
Anyway, the numbers posted were based on both the information provided by UAL in their court documents and BTS data.
No, the other work groups won't ever get it. But, if one employee group saved the airline (while of course, taking a huge leap to save a pension that was gone), that was the pilots. The mistakes made are water under the bridge but give pilots a position to negotiate from.
Of course, I'd never try to argue that to any other group....just negotiate for us in that same light with the figures to back it. Just because gave up way more has nothing to do with our interaction with other employee groups. Don't expect a thank you or anything from any of them. Just remember, those other groups enjoy the things pilots get right, or wrong, in terms of scope, etc. The really don't go there and, I suppose, have you to thank or blame, as the situation determines.
Those numbers I provided go to the negotiating table with all the rest IMO.
As to other groups, I never allowed their whining to sucker me into that argument.....except for once. This was back in the "hay-day" of the ESOP. FA complaining about what she made (I was still on probation making half of her pay...didn't mention that). My approach was, of course back in the day of printed apps, etc., "so, you filled out the same application I did, on line three when it asked what job you were applying for and had a box to check next to pilot, mechanic, FA, etc., what did you check?" Her answer, " FA." I asked "why didn't you check pilot because you know they make more.....?" Her answer, " because I"M NOT QUALIFIED."
Discussion over.
Frats,
Lee
12-05-2011 | 06:43 PM
#37
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: A-320 Capt
TW,
Haven't been on for awhile so excuse me for not getting into the fray.
Anyway, the numbers posted were based on both the information provided by UAL in their court documents and BTS data.
No, the other work groups won't ever get it. But, if one employee group saved the airline (while of course, taking a huge leap to save a pension that was gone), that was the pilots. The mistakes made are water under the bridge but give pilots a position to negotiate from.
Of course, I'd never try to argue that to any other group....just negotiate for us in that same light with the figures to back it. Just because gave up way more has nothing to do with our interaction with other employee groups. Don't expect a thank you or anything from any of them. Just remember, those other groups enjoy the things pilots get right, or wrong, in terms of scope, etc. The really don't go there and, I suppose, have you to thank or blame, as the situation determines.
Those numbers I provided go to the negotiating table with all the rest IMO.
As to other groups, I never allowed their whining to sucker me into that argument.....except for once. This was back in the "hay-day" of the ESOP. FA complaining about what she made (I was still on probation making half of her pay...didn't mention that). My approach was, of course back in the day of printed apps, etc., "so, you filled out the same application I did, on line three when it asked what job you were applying for and had a box to check next to pilot, mechanic, FA, etc., what did you check?" Her answer, " FA." I asked "why didn't you check pilot because you know they make more.....?" Her answer, " because I"M NOT QUALIFIED."
Discussion over.
Frats,
Lee
Haven't been on for awhile so excuse me for not getting into the fray.
Anyway, the numbers posted were based on both the information provided by UAL in their court documents and BTS data.
No, the other work groups won't ever get it. But, if one employee group saved the airline (while of course, taking a huge leap to save a pension that was gone), that was the pilots. The mistakes made are water under the bridge but give pilots a position to negotiate from.
Of course, I'd never try to argue that to any other group....just negotiate for us in that same light with the figures to back it. Just because gave up way more has nothing to do with our interaction with other employee groups. Don't expect a thank you or anything from any of them. Just remember, those other groups enjoy the things pilots get right, or wrong, in terms of scope, etc. The really don't go there and, I suppose, have you to thank or blame, as the situation determines.
Those numbers I provided go to the negotiating table with all the rest IMO.
As to other groups, I never allowed their whining to sucker me into that argument.....except for once. This was back in the "hay-day" of the ESOP. FA complaining about what she made (I was still on probation making half of her pay...didn't mention that). My approach was, of course back in the day of printed apps, etc., "so, you filled out the same application I did, on line three when it asked what job you were applying for and had a box to check next to pilot, mechanic, FA, etc., what did you check?" Her answer, " FA." I asked "why didn't you check pilot because you know they make more.....?" Her answer, " because I"M NOT QUALIFIED."
Discussion over.
Frats,
Lee
Again, thanks for the numbers. Of course, I'd not expect any others to understand, or even believe that we lost what we lost, but as I mentioned in an earlier post, I have a fair amount of friends and acquaintances within other work groups, and I'd like to be able to factually share information with them when the time is appropriate, because it doesn't hurt for any of them to know what size slice of the pie we have coming to us.
Your thing about the application is pretty humorous. I can imagine how that conversation ground to a halt in short order....what else is there to say?
C/B
TW
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