Thanks, monkeyfly and specialtracking, for your answers.

I guess I should know better than to ask a simple question and expect a simple answer on this forum, though.

TW

 

Sorry, not bitin'

TW

 

12 year United Pilot here who lost 100% (twice).

Like ualratt said, you want to know what other groups gave up, then ask them. You're not going to find the information you're looking for here. You make a post entitled "who lost what" on a message board frequented by many angry, bitter furloughees and you're gonna get some emotional responses. I'm just sayin'...





Cuss word count = Zero

 

If you ask 50 Flight Attendants how much of a pay cut they took, you will get 50 different answers ranging from 5-50%. I've had many insist with a straight face that they took as much of a percentage hit as the pilots. I think it is shortsighted to jump on anyone at any opportunity to plead your case of suffering. TW was asking a simple question and expected a simple answer.

As a Guppy Captain when the furloughs were handed out, I was nauseated to no end. A lot of fine people showed tremendous trust in United to return to this sweat shop. Many left lucrative jobs for the belief of a promising future only to have United return them to the street with little hope of aviation employment. What do you say to someone who wonders how they are going to feed their family when a company disposes of them like a tug or a baggage cart? It is hard to fathom the hardships many of the 1437 have and continue to endure.

Believe it or not, the furloughed United pilots have tremendous support amongst the active pilot group. Yes, there are those who would sell you out, but we realize they would sell anyone, current line pilots included, out for their own benefit. The Judas amongst us are very small minority.

United furloughed you, not the United pilots. If one continually assails those who support them, how can they expect support in the future?

 

TW,

Without even trying to repost all the many legal precedentsI made during both the 1113 process and round 2 (it would take too long), the calculations I made at the time (and this is providing base numbers with NO inclusion of the inevitable pension loss) was as follows:

At the beginning of the process (1113 BK round one), UAL pilots accounted for 26% of the total UAL labor costs. UAL pilots agreed to take 47% of total labor cost concessions (a dollar figure only without having the double secret numbers for QWL concessions that were made....which are IMO priceless).

For BKII, I think the company realized the pilots wouldn't step up and volunteer to the degree they had previously and might protest. In order to make that round of cuts more "fair and equitable" and to dilute any eventual 1113 dispute, the company made EQUAL requests for pay cuts based on percentage of labor group cost to the company (and why didn't we take it to court the first round...??).

Anyway, on a dollars figure only, after 2005, pilots took 42% of the total labor cost cuts. In the end, after both rounds, we accounted for 22% of the total labor bill. How's that for "fair and equitable." But, then again, if you're willing to agree to it, the court will allow it. Wedoff was not our lawyer and Cohen, Weiss, and Sh*tforbrains have about as poor a track record as any law firm....ask TWA guys.

But we saved the pension.....NOT. And gave away the store on most other subjects in an attempt to save what was gone day one. Good luck getting those work rules back and realize that it all has a large dollar figure tied to it.

And if I ever hear a 570 or anyone else say..."live to fight another day"....I'll slap them.

The day to fight came and went a long time ago.

Frats,
Lee

 

Lee, thank you. That's the kind of stuff I was looking for. I'm now remembering the buillschite explanation of percentages they gave us.

See, everybody? That wasn't so hard!

TW

 

TWeenie, you crack me up. Here is your original question. Look for the sentence with the "?" mark in there.
I could imagine Lee's post reinforcing what I thought you already knew, so from your question I assumed you were looking for more ammo to fight your battle. That's what "other employee groups" mean to me. I think most pilots would have gone out of their way to help you a long time ago if they knew that was what you were looking for.

What would really be entertaining is to be down in ground crew's lunch room listening, as you explain Lee's stuff to the guy who is always trying to cut you off with his baggage cart hauler at the intersection of taxiway A7 and the service road. You know the one...

Brother you need to apologize to this group for leading us down the wrong track . ...

 

I'm not seeing any ambiguity in my question. It refers to the $/hour from the previous paragraph that was taken in the second round of pay cuts that pilots, GA's, Ramp, F/As and mechanics took in 2004. Can you tell me how you misinterpreted my post? If I already knew the answers to these questions, why would I ask? And if you knew, why didn't you answer

I'm not planning on fighting any battles. I just want to have facts on hand when folks from the other represented employee groups start with their comments about pilots expecting an inordinately large piece of the pie. This is in direct response to mister smisek's comments at one of the CEO Exchanges about how he can't give us what we expect because he'd have to give the others less than they expect. This is, as we know, a blatant fabrication, that's what they will remember. they will forget about how we sacrificed back then. They need reminding, and I prefer to have facts that I can show or quote.

My original post got me tried, convicted and condemned in the court of creative and imaginative opinion that runs so rampant among pilots.

Some have insinuated that:
I'm among a group of pansy pilots (hell, my wife isn't even a pansy)
That I might be one of those "over 60 guys" (nope, but I plan on being one. A guy that LIVES past 60, that is, not necessarily FLYs past 60, but who knows...if every under-60 pilot will PROMISE to quit at 60, so will I)
That I am unfairly disregarding other factors (and that pilot further accepted my offer to buy him or her a beer once back on the line, but then said that it didn't look like "us guys" aren't in a hurry to make the job worth coming back to, which is precisely what I AM trying to do. Thanks for that. Beer's back on you)
That I am preparing some sort of argument (nope, just facts)
That my actions could very well have contributed to fellow pilots being forced to take a 100% pay cuts (***???? Kind of an all-encompassing insinuation)
That I remain anonymous (untrue; I have identified myself at least one time)
That the 85-100+ hr block holders, vacation buy backers, junior /senior manners, etc. are well known amongst [us] (Really?? Does this guy spend his life looking up other pilots' CALRECs? You might want to take a look at mine...I got 88 & change in DEC. I flew Thanksgiving, will fly 6 days over Christmas while plan an "airline holiday" with my 84 & 87 year old parents. Think I bid for that, or picked up time? I try and drop time every month. I still have a life at 57)

Listen, there are none among us more angry than me. We all lost. I lost more cash value in 5 years of B-Scale, accrued pension flushed, and myriad other things than most furloughees. IOW, we ALL lost. I've got a very close friend whom is a double furloughee. I hope he's not faking that he's actually my friend whilst bashing me anonymously on this thread, especially after the things I've done for him.

But that isn't what my post was about. It was about percentages, nothing more or less. But again, I thank those whom were able to give me info unfettered by emotion.

The pilots of UA/CO really need to direct their ƥɪʂʂ & vinegar at management instead of turning it on each other. Get the fʋçƙ past the Sr vs Jr, Old vs Young, Widebody vs Narrowbody thing already. There isn't one old senior widebody pilot that wasn't a young, junior narrowbody pilot at one time.


TW

 

This is something that ALPA should be distributing to all pilots so they can have an inteligent discussion with co-workers that might be giving pilots a hard time for demanding to much at their expense. It would be nice to pull out a wallet sized card that shows exactly how much each group gave up when the discussions arise.

 

What I like is the fact you are going to engage in direct conversations with the work groups named above and think they give one tiny speck of sh!t about what you lost. In their opinion they think you are taking too much pay right now that be should be redistributed to them. After all an FA is gone as much, without mechanics you could not read USA Today at fl390, without lav dumpers the planes would overflow with tilton, ect...ect....ect... They will not hear any of your logic "cold hard numbers" or not.

You and your future battles would be better off trying unify this "union". That means telling the regurgitation of self serving agenda crap, know as the MEC, to go pound sand. Dump the old guard starting at the LEC level and elect people that don't play grab a$$ politics and then vote in people that want to unify and fight. That means including everybody's concerns....like the twice furloughed. Anyone that has picked up overtime, accepted junior man, agreed to waive anything, ect. is helping managment and hurting fellow brothers and our unity. To be blunt these are facts this pilot group is too stupid to figure out.