If you are asking me if you're Ok - I don't know!

 

...and the truth is normally somewhere in the middle. From the comm's
I've read both sides Have their interpretation of the what and how and are pretty good at pointing the finger (although weve not heard directly from Morse)

Why didn't the UA MEC propose foregoing PS as a sign of Unity and leverage THEN ask the CAL MEC to do the same? That's called skin in the game...by all parties...

 

Wow.....you guys just can't get one simple fact thru your thick skulls.

The CAL profit sharing was NOT in their contract. The mere fact they got it was an EXTRA benefit gotten by a side deal by Pierce.

UAL has PS in their contract. It was negotiated as such.

Why is that so hard to understand? If you get it then your quote above makes ZERO sense.

 

... and extra benefit with an agreed upon "value" of nearly 80:1 of a possible grievance award. Sure, lots of airlines just give out 40 million paydays in exchange for almost nothing. Happens every day, right? Unreal.

 

Keep it professional... It is a sunset clause in our contract, which means it has to be negotiated, just like your block hour ratio, furlough protections etc...( which are not in your contract) yet you gained as a result of a deal. Pierce did what the pilot group overall through our reps requested. Negotiate PS if at all possible. I suspect your MEC would have figured out a way, if at all possible, to place 40M in the hands of pilots under a bankruptcy contract and if theydidnt try, you should get rid of them...Again, if it was for leverage in which you wanted us to forego, then why didn't your MEC propose to do the same for all your pilots...answer..you guys would run them out of office for ****ing away your PS as a tool for unity, and leverage....

 

Here was the rebuttal of Captain Pierce. When seeing <<xxx>>, those are comments CAP Pierce said in his letter, followed by the rebuttal.


REBUTTAL TO CAPTAIN PIERCE:
<<From our MEC Chairman...
A couple of final thoughts before I go to bed--
It is important that you all know that we bent over backwards to work with the UAL MEC leadership
in getting a full extension of the TPA. On December 9th, having not heard a peep from the UAL folks
about the terminable provisions of the TPA I reached out to them to set up a meeting, >>
Captain Morse clarified what actually happened. Captain Morse initiated contact by calling
Captain Pierce, not the other way around, to inform him that she had called a Special MEC
Meeting of the UAL MEC for the purposes of discussing the T&PA termination provisions. This
meeting was made necessary due to Captain Pierce’s broadcast in the CALMEC “Position Report”
that he was achieving progress on profit sharing. This go-it-independent communication served
only to incite the concerns of the United pilots. Further, it had the potential to undermine the
collective and unified position that most Continental and United pilots seek in achieving a JCBA.
<<I flew to ORD to meet with their MEC,>>
Technically, reports Captain Morse this is a true statement. Captain Pierce did fly to Chicago to
meet with the UAL MEC. But it was not because he was initiating contact as a leader. It was in
response to the crisis developing and brought about by his actions. The fact is that on December
10th (the day after Captain Morse called Captain Pierce to express significant concern over
Captain Pierce’s communication) Captain Pierce emailed Chairman Morse suggesting that he
address the UAL MEC at the Special MEC meeting on the 14th and 15th. Captain Morse told
Captain Pierce that she would make the timeslot around 2PM available on the 14th should the
UALMEC wish to hear from him. Captain Pierce advised Captain Morse that he would be arriving
in Chicago on the morning of the 14th.
Captain Pierce actually planned to fly to Chicago on the night of the 13th but did not advise
Captain Morse of this fact. Upon learning this information Captain Morse asked Captain Pierce to
call her as soon as he landed in Chicago and when he did she asked him to meet her in the
UALMEC office. A meeting ensued which included Captains Morse, Pierce, Heppner, Perry, and
First Officer Hamilton. Collectively they laid out a plan to provide impetus toward achieving a
JCBA which would include T&PA extension provisions. Captain Pierce indicated that he wanted
to consider the plan and to reach out to some portion of the CALMEC about this matter. Captain
Morse asked him to let her know before the UALMEC meeting began in the morning if he and the
CALMEC would be on board with the collective strategy.
Before the UALMEC meeting began, Captain Pierce indicated to Captain Morse that he and the
CALMEC were onboard with the plan.
<<I set up the meetings with management. >>
With regard to these discussions with management, Captain Morse indicates that she called
Senior Vice President of Human Resources, Mike Bonds, on December 16th, the day after the
Special MEC Meeting, as agreed to by Captains Morse, Pierce, and Heppner, to see if Bonds would
be available at a specific time. Captain Morse left a message with Bonds’ secretary who indicated
that he would be available as requested. Captain Morse then brought Captains Pierce and
Heppner onto a line and conferenced Mike Bonds. A meeting was then set up for Monday
evening, December 19th.
On December 19th, at 1830, Captain Morse met with Captains Pierce, Heppner, Perry, Randy
Hodge, CAL-MEC Secretary Treasurer, and Mike Bonds and Doug McKeen. The joint proposal
agreed to by Captain Pierce and presumably the CALMEC, was passed to the company.
<<This was the right thing to do and we made some good headway with management on the TPA
issues. They agreed to extend the furlough protection provision and the ratio protection provision--
both very valuable to the UAL side of the house. >>
In discussing this with Captain Morse, “Half True” might not be exactly the right descriptor.
Maybe, “YEAH, SORTA, KINDA,” would be more appropriate. The fact is that $40million dollars is
concrete and quantifiable. That is what the CAL pilots will receive. There was no “headway”
made as there was no change from what the company had previously indicated in passing
conversation that they were willing to offer. Furlough protection and ratio protections are only
valuable IF there is likely to be, either a furlough, or the company deciding to reduce flying on one
side or the other. Captain Pierce takes quite a liberty in expressing for the United pilots what is
important to the United pilots. It is also critical to consider that these provisions will only last
twelve (12) months for the United pilots, while the profit sharing that a Continental pilot receives,
if put into a 401K plan will last a lifetime and beyond.
While nobody can predict with certainty all eventualities, current situations, events, and realities
can give us a pretty good view of things. For the next twelve months it is HIGHLY unlikely that
the airline will furlough anybody. It is also highly unlikely due to certain CBA provisions that the
“ratios” could be impacted. Consider that shrinking UAL would means shrinking UAX. Consider
that CAL has provisions that do not allow 70-seaters, and consider that the 50-seat product is for
all intent and purpose, dying. Consider that United is requiring pilots on LOAs to return upon
those leaves expiring with no extensions because they are short of pilots, consider that the airline
should be hiring, especially because in less than twelve months significant retirements will begin.
Consider that United is understaffed for 2012 summer, a period in which they offered us,
according to Captain Pierce, “valuable furlough protection.” One must ask, whose case is
Captain Pierce making; managements, or ours?
Regardless of the realities and truth, it is up the United pilots to decide what is valuable, and
what is not, for the United pilots. Captain Pierce may be the decider of all things for the CALMEC
and Continental pilots, but he would be well advised to not attempt such Fergish behavior on the
United pilots.
Oh, wait. Too late.
<<They also were agreeable to our participation in the PS plan for 2011. Valuable to us.
To make a long story short these discussion failed because the UAL Leadership inserted demands
that were not TPA related into the mix. This killed the deal before we could even get to an end game.
First they insisted on wage rate parity with CAL for all UAL pilots.>>
According to Captain Morse, what Captain Pierce is attempting to do is redirect, rationalize,
justify, and lay blame for his failure at the notion of TRUE JOINT COLLECTIVE bargaining, as a
team, rather than as in individual.
What UAL Leadership (Captains Morse and Heppner) presented was a negotiation position. They
were told by Captain Pierce that he and the CALMEC were onboard with this strategy. Within the
proposal were incentives and penalties, like the piece calling for parity equivalence with what the
CAL pilots were receiving but only if the JCBA was NOT reached by a date certain. Under
Captain Pierce’s original plan the CAL pilots were getting $40 million dollars extra contractually
and the United pilots were to get ZIP, ZIPPO, NADA – not a singe red cent. The company wanted
to include the PS (profit sharing) for CAL pilots for their own public relations purposes, to mollify
the CAL pilots, and to reward Captain Pierce for distancing the CAL pilots from their UAL brothers
and sisters during the SOC training/safety struggle, as well as other matters such as Captain
Pierce’s failed promises to join the United pilots and the rest of the industry in ensuring that all
checking events are conducted in full motion simulators (more on these matters later).
<<Management rejected that proposal. In response, UAL then approached management unilaterally
(without agreement from us) with a proposal that insisted that the UAL pilots receive a bonus of an
equivalent amount to our Profit Sharing. >>
Captain Morse reports, to the contrary, that she and Captain Heppner delayed sending our
contract proposal to the company until Captain Pierce agreed on the proposal and plan. She said,
“We did not send the counter until Thursday, December 29th, because we did not want to send it
without Pierce’s agreement.”
She further added that the counter proposal was based on the Company’s response to our
proposal and meeting with the company on December 19th. The Company’s counter to our
December 19th proposal came on Thursday December 22nd.
Most importantly and relevant is that what Captain Pierce refers to as a “proposal” is actually the
following: On Friday December 23rd Captain Morse had a conversation with Doug McKeen and
asked him whether the T&PA agreement needed to be concluded by the end of the year due to the
inclusion of CALs profit sharing. She told McKeen that reasonable people could get to a
reasonable place, but that it would take time, which was running out if there was indeed a
deadline of December 31st. She further advised McKeen of the status quo implications should the
UAL pilots not receive equivalent remuneration. That was a statement of the facts, not a
“unilateral approach with a proposal,” as Captain Pierce suggested. As Captain Morse has
stated, neither she nor any other UALMEC representatives sent any kind of proposal until
Captain Pierce agreed it to on the 29th of December. His statement is simply not factual.
Further, Captain Morse states that on the day prior to sending the proposal agreed to by Captain
Pierce, and presumably the CALMEC, Captain Pierce and she participated in a call with Mike
Bonds and Doug McKeen. On this call they stated that they were unwilling to provide
remuneration to the United pilots, and reiterated that they were willing to provide profit sharing
to the CAL pilots in return for settling their 767 disagreement.
Captain Morse reports that before the meeting with management began, she and Captain Pierce
mutually agreed that they would ONLY LISTEN to the company and not engage in any debate or
negotiating. This matter had been discussed on a conference call between Captains Heppner,
Pierce, and Morse, and it was agreed that neither side would provide a position because at that
time Captain Pierce was opposed to sending the proposal because he wanted to separate the CAL
pilot issues (profit sharing) from the UAL pilot issues (remuneration for the United pilots), as he
was hoping that the UAL pilot issues would fall off the table and he would be successful in
achieving profit sharing, even if it was necessary to sacrifice those he’s committed to standing
together, and working collectively with. Some of us believe that there is a word for that kind of
behavior.
Interestingly, during the conference call with managers Bonds and McKeen, on the 28th, after
hearing the company’s position, Jay Pierce spoke up. He asked the managers if the company
would allow one side to agree to management’s proposal (meaning CALMEC) while the other side
rejected it (meaning UALMEC). According to Captain Morse, Bonds replied, “No, the extension
required all three parties.” Bonds meant that the company, the CALMEC and the UALMEC would
all have to agree for the extension provisions, which included the profit sharing extension for CAL
pilots in order for the extensions to be in place.
The call was concluded and prior to hanging up Captain Pierce asked Captain Morse to call him.
She returned his call and suggested that Captain Heppner be brought back on the line. Captain
Pierce agreed and it was decided that they would all redial in on a conference call number due to
technical matters with their personal phones earlier in the day.
They both hung up, she texted Captain Heppner and they joined the conference line. Captain
Pierce never called in. Captain Morse texted Captain Pierce but he did not respond. She stated
that at the time she supposed that he was talking to his confidant(s) on the CALMEC, but now,
based on how things turned out and the timing, it is quite likely that he was in fact speaking
directly to the company behind the UALMEC’s back.
The following day, on December 29th, Captain Pierce called Captain Morse and asked how she
wanted to respond to the company’s offer of the 28th. She stated that “we should send our
counter that we had worked on earlier in the week.” Pierce agreed to send the counter proposal
to the company, the one that included profit sharing for CAL, equivalent monies for the United
pilots, and extension of the T&PA with certain modifications as previously decribed in a letter to
the pilots by Captain Morse around December 30th.
<<Management rejected their offer, ended the TPA extension discussions and only then approached
us with a different way to participate in profit sharing. >>
Yes, management rejected our offer. They ended the T&PA extension discussions. What is not
known is what discussions Captain Pierce had with management on his own.
<<It is never a good poker strategy to bluff when the other side knows what cards you are holding. In
short, Wendy went all in with a pair of twos and was shocked that management called her bluff. >>
Captain Morse states that there was no “bluff,” as Captain Pierce suggests. In her words, “This
was simple negotiations, which we had hoped we could act on as a unified team, to count on each
other and each other’s strengths as well as the cards in each other’s hands, as one combined
hand the goal of which was to incentivize the company to negotiate a JCBA. What we learned,
and if I was shocked at anything, was the speed and efficiency at which Jay Pierce harmed the
overall objective.”
<<Then to top it all off she wanted us to cover her for a few more hands with our profit sharing.
Being blunt, they messed up these talks and now are looking for someone to blame.>>
What Politifact icon to place here?
Perhaps this picture speaks a thousand more words…
Captain Morse puts it a little differently, “This is an interesting statement from the man who has
stood before thousands of United and Continental pilots, has stood before both MECs, has stood
before Wall Street and the world and proclaimed that United Airlines is dealing with a formidable
force of a unified pilot group 12,000 strong who cannot be divided by management’s tactics.”
<<Now, as to the concept that because of all this we will suffer a loss of unity severe enough that our
future joint efforts will be negatively affected, let me say this; I have spoken to Jay Heppner
throughout the last few weeks and kept him apprised of what we were doing - much more so than his
prior leadership.>>
“Captain Pierce knows as well as I do,” says Captain Morse, “that Captain Heppner was on the
calls with us, with the exception of the one call with Bonds and McKeen. He was not on that call
because for some reason Doug McKeen called Heppner and asked him not to be on the call, with
little explantation. Captain Heppner could not have been more appraised and involved, as he
was completely included in the creating of the proposals and the discussions. Where does
Captain Pierce come off making such accusations?
<<I spoke to him today, his first official day in office, and we agreed to a joint project designed to
protect both CAL and UAL pilots scope interests when UCH goes to a single code. This is
remarkably important work that we need to do jointly.
Negotiations for a JCBA will go forward jointly without missing a beat. Our goals have not changed
nor the desire to get it done.
Yes, there will some individual UAL pilots who will be angry that we were able to produce value for
our pilots with this and that their leadership failed to do so.>>
Captain Morse states that she’s not sure how to respond to such obvious and blatant
propaganda.
But the United pilots who have been reaching out have indicated disgust with the behavior of
Captain Pierce in going it alone, in abandoning the principles of unionism and unity and in
seeking to gain for a minority at the expense of the collective. The United pilots I have spoken
with are furious over Captain Pierce’s never ending stream of failed promise after failed promise.
In the words of one especially irate United pilot, “It’s time for him to own his s—t.”
Captain Morse did say, “To summarize, the company was unwilling to give value to the United
pilots because what they wanted was to rid themselves of a troubling matter, the 767 sales, and
to be able to parade the CAL pilots around to the media and the world as happy employees
holding bags of nickels on February 14th when profit sharing is paid. Captain Pierce, it is alleged,
has violated the T&PA by unilaterally negotiating a deal contrary to his agreement with Captain
Heppner and me. Although Captain Pierce told us that the CAL MEC were in agreement with the
proposal, I am not sure that they even knew about it. In essence he violated his commitment and
abandoned his only ally, the United pilots. Perhaps this should not come as a surprise to us, for
despite the numerous times that Pierce has spoken the words of unity to our pilots and our
MECs, he also said to the UAL MEC that “one way or another he was going to get profit sharing.”
Pierce mortgaged the collective futures of 12,000 United pilots, and all for only 40 million pieces
of silver on a combined contract that today is worth over 1.5 billion dollars.
<<Yes, their MEC may look for ways to save face and cast blame on me or our MEC. I have pretty
thick skin.>>
<<I think that in the long run there will be recognition that on the important issues, such as
negotiating our JCBA or protecting our scope sections, we have to work together. And just like the
minor rift between the MEC's a year ago over pay banding was healed by our common interests so
too will this be healed. After all, when all is said and done, what happened was that both pilot groups
ended up participating in exactly the same Profit Sharing plan. >>
If my memory is correct, stated Captain Morse, the CAL pilots traded away their profit sharing in
return for a pay raise. At the same time the UAL pilots gave astronomical concessions in
bankruptcy (pay, pensions, work rules, and benefits) for our profit sharing? Is this incorrect?
To help Captain Pierce fully appreciate the gravity of his actions, actions he now tries to
play down, as we prepare to slog through the beginning of another year of poorly
disguised bad faith bargaining by management… Captain Pierce got (temporarily) the
same profit sharing plan that the UAL pilots paid dearly for, but to get it he had to violate
an agreement with his fellow United pilots, and agreement which was designed to benefit
all “new” United pilots, not just some; and he has further validated the critical reviews of
his character by those who know him best. The damage done will affect every pilot at UAL
and shrugging off the seriousness of this situation with casual indifference just won’t cut
it, not anymore, Captain Pierce.
Whether it has been his failed promise to join the United pilots in taking a position on
critical safety and training related matters such as conducting all checking events in full
motion simulators, or committing to taking other collective stances on matters involving
the FOQA and FSAP programs, or in shadowy interactions with the company such that
enabled United Airlines to proclaim loud and clear, in court and to the world, that the
Continental pilots stand separate from the United pilots on matters of significant and
serious training deficiencies and safety. Captain Jay Pierce always seems to say all the
right unionist things, yet always manages to skink away from delivering the product. And
there is ALWAYS someone else to blame.
Captain Pierce has put out his talking points. He’s got his loyalists telling the world what
he would like you to believe verses the truth. The facts and his talking points are in
dramatic conflict. How is it that Captain Pierce is always the self-proclaimed
peacemaker, but there is always a smoking gun by his feet and peace never seems to
come. How is it that he’s always the leader, but there is always evidence of lack of
leadership nearby him? How is it that he is always on top of the solution, but there is
never a success? How is it that anything and everything that goes wrong is always
somebody else’s fault? Yet he is never responsible for anything? How is it that this
individual who would go to work for an Ornstein, arguably the Frank Lorenzo of the
Regional Airline business, would end up with so much power over our collective futures?
When Captain Pierce falsely tells the media that he’s been a Continental pilot since 1989,
is that just an ego based fib, or indicative of a much more disturbing flaw?
At this time we are producing a significant document detailing and outlining the events as
transpired since the CAL/UAL merger was announced. The pilots of both airlines must
understand who and what Captain Jay Pierce is, what he represents, and the damage he
is doing to our collective futures.
After that it will be up to the pilots of United and Continental to decide what to do about
it. This merger, our futures, and our collective voices are much more important than one
man. Impropriety, misrepresentation, and actions that are contrary toward our collective
goal of a JCBA will speak for themselves. The question becomes, what can be done. The
answer is simple. The United pilots must decide if they want to work with this individual.
If they do not, they do not. If he remains in office things will progress as they do, or they
won’t. If the Continental pilots decide that they want something better, something
genuine and real – A UNIONIST, they have the collective power, authority, and RIGHT to
make it happen. They have a RIGHT to hold their representatives accountable. Together
WE own this union. The company does not and neither does Captain Pierce. No single
man is more important than the collective. If there was ever a time to band together and
discard undesirable elements in favor of unionism, now is that time as we will be living
with the results of our success or our failures until the end of our careers.
Fraternally,
Captain Garry Kravit
Former UAL-MEC Vice Chairman

 

"You haven't answered the original question, are CAL pilots welcome in your cockpit or not? "

Of course they are!

And even when we had a problem with CASS I made the command decision it was OK to let a CAL Capt in my jumpseat because he had a UAL pilot ID just like mine. Even got our local Pilot Office after the fact to agree it was OK.

And for those "truth" seekers out there I think it all has been posted and the two "Jays" are working together a bit better than the Wendy and Jay show. Maybe there was a little gender prejudice going on? Shame, shame and more shame if there was.

 

After reading both "posts", I feel like I just walked out of high school for retards. Kinda like watching "The View" on steroids, PMS, and sober. CAL has been at this contract for 3+ years and now a JCBA for 1+ and IMO we be hosed.

 

Please show me the "deal" that we gained furlough and ratio protection. As a professional, I'll be anxiously awaiting your reply.

But, hey....psssst....I'll give you a little hint as to why this board is such a joke and you feel my calling you thick headed is so unprofessional.....

WE DIDN'T GET ANY PROTECTIONS AS A PART OF ANY DEAL!!!!

Your boy Pierce went rouge and 'negotiated' your side deal while knowing that the UAL side would be completely cut out of it.

So, DO YOU UNDERSTAND????!! The UAL side got NOTHING!

 

It was not a side deal by Pierce. When Plan "A" did not pan out (extension of TPA to protect L-UAL provisions and PS for L-CAL), Plan B was implemented (settlement of the 767 grievance for PS)

PS was negotiated as a settlement for the 767 grievance filed under the CAL"02" contract. Plain and simple.

my 2 cents...