Originally Posted by 13n144e

OK, seriously. I can't speak for all CAL guys, but as for myself, I'm most afraid of a USAIR-type scenario where ineffectual, paralyzing lawsuits drag on for the duration of my career. I think having realistic expectations of the process on both sides will help minimize the potential for this scenario, but I keep hearing a lot of misinformation - particularly in regards to the "new" merger policy that was changed "because of" the NWA/DAL decision. That's simply not the case. ALPA formed the Merger Policy Review Committee (MPRC) in Oct 2007 and charged it "to review, evaluate, and make recommendations" regarding existing ALPA merger policy. One of the members of the MPRC will be present at our ISL arbitration. Most of the changes recommended by the MPRC actually refer to the processthe MEC's and MC's follow to arrive at arbitration and actually implement some of the positive developments of the NWA/DAL decision. We're seeing the effects of a lot of these decisions now, i.e. the JCBA. The sole change to actual integration considerations (the addition of "longevity" to the factors that may be considered) wasn't made as a knee-jerk reaction to some perceived ground swell of dissatisfaction with the NWA/DAL decision. It was just made as a step to give some further clarification to the extremely nebulous guidance on seniority integration. We would all do well to keep in mind that it is still exceptionally vague and remains that way intentionally to give the arbitrator(s) a great deal of latitude in reaching his/ their conclusions (not coincidentally minimizing ALPA's liability). The minor "changes" in the actual integration guidance don't do anything in particular to reinforce NWA/DAL but it certainly doesn't do anything to minimize it as a precedent either.

Originally Posted by Coto Pilot

As dues paying ALPA members, ALPA is now legally obligated to represent us in the integration. If it is not a vigorous representation, we will do what some many ALPA pilots have done before and file a DFR lawsuit.

Originally Posted by Coto Pilot

As a United pilot in training at Continental, I can tell you that virtually every Continental pilot I have encountered has what I percieve to be an unrealistic expectation. ...................

Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot

First off, welcome to "Continental", glad we could at least get you back into the cockpit. A LOT of guys come on here and huff and puff and are going to blow the airline away, but after being furloughed for a few months/years, they get itchy to get back where they really belong, the cockpit. My question to you is "what are realistic expectations" to you? UAL was in major distress until a couple of years ago. Your planes are dinosaurs and your flying was evaporating at an alarming rate. Yes, you have B-747's, but when they aren't making any money and are soon to head to the boneyard, what good are they? Your DEN presence was vanishing and the RJ's/SWA were getting a LOT of your flying. How long do you seriously think without the CAL/UAL MERGER you'd be furloughed? I have friends at AMR (ex-TWA)that have been furloughed for as long as you and they've just been pushed back even further...............so what were their career expectations? Most were resigned to the fact they'd NEVER see an AMR cockpit again and have moved on. I think what's unrealistic is this "rosey" picture so many furloughed UAL pilots have. I'm glad to see you here, but if UAL was so "great", then why are you working for us now? That's not a "dig", but a serious question. BTW, I have a few friends who were furloughed from UAL a long time ago that I recommended to CAL and they've been here for years now and have no intention of going back to UAL. Good luck to you, and if you end up in EWR I'll buy you a nice steak dinner to welcome you aboard.

Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot

First off, welcome to "Continental", glad we could at least get you back into the cockpit. A LOT of guys come on here and huff and puff and are going to blow the airline away, but after being furloughed for a few months/years, they get itchy to get back where they really belong, the cockpit. My question to you is "what are realistic expectations" to you? UAL was in major distress until a couple of years ago.

++And after that we were printing cash++

Your planes are dinosaurs

++ what does the age of the equipment have to do with anything WRT career expectations, pay, QOL and the JCBA???+++

and your flying was evaporating at an alarming rate. Yes, you have B-747's, but when they aren't making any money

++are you delusional?? ++

and are soon to head to the boneyard, what good are they?
++again...++

Your DEN presence was vanishing and the RJ's/SWA were getting a LOT of your flying. How long do you seriously think without the CAL/UAL MERGER you'd be furloughed?

++If not for the merger, he's still be working at UAL flying one of those old money making 737s'++

I have friends at AMR (ex-TWA)that have been furloughed for as long as you and they've just been pushed back even further...............so what were their career expectations? Most were resigned to the fact they'd NEVER see an AMR cockpit again and have moved on.

++apple, meet orange++

I think what's unrealistic is this "rosey" picture so many furloughed UAL pilots have. I'm glad to see you here, but if UAL was so "great", then why are you working for us now? That's not a "dig", but a serious question.

++you can't be serious++


BTW, I have a few friends who were furloughed from UAL a long time ago that I recommended to CAL and they've been here for years now and have no intention of going back to UAL. Good luck to you, and if you end up in EWR I'll buy you a nice steak dinner to welcome you aboard.

Originally Posted by Coto Pilot

As a United pilot in training at Continental, I can tell you that virtually every Continental pilot I have encountered has what I percieve to be an unrealistic expectation. There is no credit given to United's larger percentage of wide boby aircraft, the 747's were all going to be gone, United had no aircraft on order, United was in financial trouble and CO saved them, furloughed pilots are all going to be stapled etc.. I can tell you that for many of us furloughed pilots, we will not sit back and get screwed by ALPA again. As dues paying ALPA members, ALPA is now legally obligated to represent us in the integration. If it is not a vigorous representation, we will do what some many ALPA pilots have done before and file a DFR lawsuit.

Originally Posted by ewrbasedpilot

First off, welcome to "Continental", glad we could at least get you back into the cockpit.

Originally Posted by Scott Stoops

So... just so we're clear... you personally did this? You're taking personal and/or effectual personal credit for getting the UAL furloughees back into the cockpit? UFB. Your posts are the most condescending posts of any pilot I've ever read. You did NOTHING to make this happen. NOTHING. Don't act like you did. Decisions have been made that benefited UCH. You didn't make them. You working "extra hard" as a pilot for UCAL didn't make it happen, and me working for UAL didn't cause it in the first place or make it happen. If you really feel that you're the cause, reason or fault in any of this then you simply don't understand how the big the game is or how it is played.

Am I glad that then furloughed LUAL pilots have been offered employment at LCAL? Absolutely. That said, they furloughed so that the merger could happen (I could care less if you agree). We flew all of the same jets (737's) that UCH is now proposing that CAL will fly on the same routes not 4 years ago. They "replaced" them with inefficient RJ's, and claimed that the 737's simply couldn't be flown cost effectively despite the fact that they had the lowest cost of ANY 737 operator in the US through our bankruptcy contract. Total and complete crap. They were parked for a reason. Any guesses what that might be? The 50-70 seat RJ isn't a panacea. It isn't more efficient than any of our "old" 737's that it replaced. Period.