Uhh no part of the deal with the merger is that those options had to be bought out to avoid a huge penalty and law suit with airbus. They were worked into the A-350 deal somehow.

 

Let's get some things straight:

1. "In 2008, when the supposed secret merger took place" It was no secret at all. The merger agreement died at the midnight hour and the CEO of CAL resigned shortly there after to pursue other interests (read between the lines).

2. LUAL Management made no bones about "right sizing" the airline and they parked the B737s because they were PAID FOR. The question always asked why park an asset that is debt free and low cost to operate? Answer. Because if they parked one of the leased aircraft the leases would still be due, generating revenue or not.

3. Right sizing was done because the industry was unsustainable at those current levels. The Finance boys at the top said, "raise ticket prices," which means "capacity control/discipline."

4. The finance guys killed the 2008 merger because of the size and unsustainable revenue.

5. The Finance guys could have cared less about a pilot(s) being furloughed.

6. The LUAL pilots did have higher expectations and futures over LCAL pilots until the "right sizing."

Joe Friday, "Just the facts mam."

 

Next fact:

The options were still in force until the A350 order was signed. Check back and I believe you will see LUAL did NOT pay any surrender fees for cancelling the 320 order. (I know you will let me know if I'm wrong.)

 

Why are we still discussing this? Let the two respective merger Committee's make their cases and we'll get an arbitrated list.

This he said, she said stuff is pointless. Joint Contract first, then the SLI which is out of our hands.

Too bad we don't put as much effort into securing a JCBA.

 

++++++111111111111

 

Agreed,

It would be great to get away from this. However, there is such a divide in thinking over what did or did not happen in 2008 that I believe it merits discussion. If this divide is not bridged by the time an arbitrated ruling comes out we may find ourselves in USAir/AmWest debacle. I'd rather hash it out now than try to at the last minute.

Also, I like to hear the other side's argument. Some points are salient, others not so much. It is good to get the other perspective.

 

I see a lot of speculation and few facts.

 

Holy guacamole, this is so freakin' true!

Good thing that the posts on this and other forums represent the minority of the collective pilots' opinions, lest mister smisek think we are rift with infighting. My own observations lead me to believe that the vast, VAST majority of us, whether forum regulars or not, are far more focused upon the actual bigger objectives that mister smisek would like to believe.

All the better that he has an inaccurate concept of his enemy's objective.

TW

 

From UAL annual report:

Flight Equipment

Including aircraft operating by regional carriers on their behalf, Continental and United operated 611 and 645 aircraft, respectively, as of December 31, 2011. UAL’s combined fleet as of December 31, 2011 is presented in the table below:


Mainline: Aircraft Type/Total/Owned/Leased/Seats in Standard Configuration /Average Age (In Years)
747-400 23 15 8 374 16.1
777-200 19 18 1 258-348 14.6
777-200ER 55 38 17 253-276 11.8
767-300 14 13 1 244 12.3
767-400ER 16 14 2 235-256 10.3
757-300 21 9 12 213-216 6.6
767-300ER 21 6 15 183 19.4
757-200 134 38 96 110-182 18.2
767-200ER 8 8 — 174 10.9
737-900ER 33 33 — 167-173 3.0
737-900 12 8 4 167-173 10.3
737-800 130 57 73 152-160 9.0
A320-200 97 51 46 138-144 13.6
737-700 36 12 24 118-124 13.0
A319-100 55 41 14 120 12.0
737-500 27 — 27 108-114 16.6

Total mainline 701 361 340 12.4


Regional:Aircraft Type/Total/Owned/Leased/Capacity Purchase/Seats in Standard Configuration
Q400 30 — — 30 71-74
E-170 38 — — 38 70
CRJ700 115 — — 115 66
Q300 5 — — 5 50
CRJ200 79 — 29 50 50
ERJ-145 (XR/LR/ER) 263 16 226 21 50
Q200 16 — — 16 37
EMB 120 9 — 9 — 30

Total regional 555 16 264 275

Total 1,256 377 604 275

Mainline aircraft is comprised of 355 aircraft at United and 346 at Continental. Regional aircraft is comprised of 290 aircraft at United and 265 at Continental. In addition to the aircraft operating in scheduled service presented in the tables above, United and Continental own or lease the following parked or subleased aircraft listed below as of December 31, 2011:

• Five owned Boeing 747-400s, including one to be inducted into charter service;

• One leased Boeing 767-200, which is being subleased to another airline;

• Three Airbus A330s which are subleased to another airline;

• Two leased 757-200s, which have been returned to the lessor;

• 16 Boeing 737-300s, of which four are owned and 12 are leased;

• 18 owned Boeing 737-500s; and

• 30 leased ERJ-135s, five of which are subleased to another airline.
Firm Order and Option Aircraft.

As of December 31, 2011, United and Continental had firm commitments and options to purchase the following aircraft:

United Aircraft Commitments. As of December 31, 2011, United had firm commitments to purchase 50 new aircraft (25 Boeing 787 aircraft and 25 Airbus A350XWB aircraft) scheduled for delivery from 2016 through 2019. United also has options to purchase 42 Airbus A319 and A320 aircraft, and purchase rights for 50 Boeing 787 aircraft and 50 Airbus A350XWB aircraft.

United has secured considerable backstop financing commitments from its aircraft and engine manufacturers, subject to certain customary conditions. However, United can provide no assurance that backstop financing, or any other financing not already in place, for aircraft and engine deliveries will be available to United on acceptable terms when necessary or at all.

Continental Aircraft Commitments. As of December 31, 2011, Continental had firm commitments to purchase 82 new aircraft (57 Boeing 737 aircraft and 25 Boeing 787 aircraft) scheduled for delivery from 2012 through 2016. Continental expects to place into service 19 Boeing 737 aircraft, of which two have been delivered prior to the filing of this report, and five Boeing 787 aircraft in 2012. Continental also has options to purchase 89 additional Boeing 737 and 787 aircraft.

Continental does not have backstop financing or any other financing currently in place for the Boeing aircraft on order. Financing will be necessary to satisfy Continental’s capital commitments for its firm order aircraft and other related capital expenditures. Continental can provide no assurance that backstop financing, or any other financing not already in place, for aircraft and engine deliveries will be available to Continental on acceptable terms when necessary or at all.

The Company is currently in discussions with Boeing over potential compensation related to delays in the 787 aircraft deliveries. The Company is not able to estimate the ultimate success, amount of, nature or timing of any potential recoveries from Boeing over such delays.

See Item 7, Management’s Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations, and Note 17 in Item 8 of this report for information related to future capital commitments to purchase these aircraft.

 

If you want to use Capt. Brucia's dissent as the basis for dealing with the L-UAL furloughees I'll sign on to that plan. But you guys really ought to read the award.

"At a minimum, it is my opinion that the US Airways pilots, who had already received notice of their opportunity to return to work from furlough, should have received some consideration for the substantial time they have already invested in their airline. In the event that the "new" company again decided to furlough pilots in the near future,conditions and restrictions could have been used to insure a measure of protection for the junior America West pilots to protect them from furlough for some period of time. In fact such a restriction was part of the US Airways Pilot's integration proposal in this case.I believe that this approach would have better balanced the equities that each pilot group brought to this merger."