DAL/UCAL Comparison Sect. 1-11
11-17-2012 | 12:26 PM
#22
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Gets Weekends Off
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From: right for a long, long time
11-17-2012 | 12:28 PM
#23
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From: right for a long, long time
Because the TA matched Delta's 76 seat RJ limit its worse just because DAL didn't increase and UAL did? Makes little sense. Worse should be changed to equal. Right below it concession should be changed to equal. Lastly, pilots want to show up for duty an hour before departure rather than 45 mins prior excluding day one? How is giving you more rest worse? I guess the $.53 per diem is more important than extra 15 minutes of sleep.
Other than that the rest look like valid, unbiased points
Other than that the rest look like valid, unbiased points
11-17-2012 | 12:38 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by shiznit:1294790
Because the TA matched Delta's 76 seat RJ limit its worse just because DAL didn't increase and UAL did? Makes little sense. Worse should be changed to equal. Right below it concession should be changed to equal. Lastly, pilots want to show up for duty an hour before departure rather than 45 mins prior excluding day one? How is giving you more rest worse? I guess the $.53 per diem is more important than extra 15 minutes of sleep.
Other than that the rest look like valid, unbiased points
Other than that the rest look like valid, unbiased points
11-17-2012 | 02:48 PM
#27
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Shiz you have one error in the scope section. Both DAL and UAL have the same amount of flying allowed above 900sm.
From the DAL PWA:
4. At least 85% of all category A and C operations each month will be under 900 statute miles.
From the DAL PWA:
4. At least 85% of all category A and C operations each month will be under 900 statute miles.
Last edited by El10; 11-17-2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: sp
11-17-2012 | 02:58 PM
#28
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From: UAL retired
Just the facts please M'am.
First off I'm working on a comprehensive post for a new thread where I play the Pro side, but in the mean time allow me to throw a few simple facts and anecdotes into the mix. I don't care for name calling or short witty remarks intended to put people down so if you don't like what I'm saying and don't have a factual retort I hope you will keep your remarks to yourself, BUT
I just came back from a 4 day trip where I questioned 27 L-UAL guys and 4 L-CAL guys on their knowledge and opinion of the TA. All 27 L-UAL pilots were in favor of the TA, 1 of the L-CAL pilots was in favor of the TA.
Has anyone realized yet that the pay rates in the table are not what you will get paid? The pay will be "blended" and when this is done the average will come a few dollars closer to Delta.
At one point in time Pan Am, TWA, United, and Delta all paid their pilots the highest in the industry. All of them went bankrupt. I have said from the beginning of my career that the truth is we are in competition with other airlines pilot groups to be more efficient. Do I like that? No. Do I wish I could make that not true politically? Yes. Did Delta's MEC actively discuss how they might aid in "killing" United when we were in bankruptcy? Yes. So, do you want to give your company a competitive edge in labor costs or demand a premium.
LOA 25: Most of the 27 L-UAL pilots I asked had no idea what LOA 25 was about. When I explained the issue, most pilots did not sympathize with the '99 hires. An ALPA rep said to me in private that they intend to repeal the impact by resolution after the SLI when the L-UAL councils can out vote the L-CAL councils. (I have zero proof of whether that is true or possible.)
If we reject this contract, remember there are 4 players involved: management, UAL-ALPA, CAL-ALPA, and the NMB. After talking to my local reps in person, it is my belief that the NMB will be less than sympathetic to our demands as the absolute economic value of this contract has been determined to exceed that of Delta's contract. So what is it that we want changed after a "NO" vote? Higher pay? Better work rules? More days off? Protection for UAL furloughees? A bigger retro check? I know it is hard to imagine, but if the union were to ask the NMB for the right to strike for any of these reasons I see little support outside of the pilot community, and the UAL and CAL desires may even work to oppose each other thereby actively prolonging the process perhaps indefinitely a la USAir.
Bottom Line: This contract has vast QWOL improvements for L-CAL. A huge pay raise for L-UAL Airbus pilots, and a sizable pay raise for the rest of the L-UAL pilots. It may not be perfect, but I will go on record saying I think it will pass.
Joe Peck
IAD - UALFO
756-FO
D.O.H. 4/1/96
I just came back from a 4 day trip where I questioned 27 L-UAL guys and 4 L-CAL guys on their knowledge and opinion of the TA. All 27 L-UAL pilots were in favor of the TA, 1 of the L-CAL pilots was in favor of the TA.
Has anyone realized yet that the pay rates in the table are not what you will get paid? The pay will be "blended" and when this is done the average will come a few dollars closer to Delta.
At one point in time Pan Am, TWA, United, and Delta all paid their pilots the highest in the industry. All of them went bankrupt. I have said from the beginning of my career that the truth is we are in competition with other airlines pilot groups to be more efficient. Do I like that? No. Do I wish I could make that not true politically? Yes. Did Delta's MEC actively discuss how they might aid in "killing" United when we were in bankruptcy? Yes. So, do you want to give your company a competitive edge in labor costs or demand a premium.
LOA 25: Most of the 27 L-UAL pilots I asked had no idea what LOA 25 was about. When I explained the issue, most pilots did not sympathize with the '99 hires. An ALPA rep said to me in private that they intend to repeal the impact by resolution after the SLI when the L-UAL councils can out vote the L-CAL councils. (I have zero proof of whether that is true or possible.)
If we reject this contract, remember there are 4 players involved: management, UAL-ALPA, CAL-ALPA, and the NMB. After talking to my local reps in person, it is my belief that the NMB will be less than sympathetic to our demands as the absolute economic value of this contract has been determined to exceed that of Delta's contract. So what is it that we want changed after a "NO" vote? Higher pay? Better work rules? More days off? Protection for UAL furloughees? A bigger retro check? I know it is hard to imagine, but if the union were to ask the NMB for the right to strike for any of these reasons I see little support outside of the pilot community, and the UAL and CAL desires may even work to oppose each other thereby actively prolonging the process perhaps indefinitely a la USAir.
Bottom Line: This contract has vast QWOL improvements for L-CAL. A huge pay raise for L-UAL Airbus pilots, and a sizable pay raise for the rest of the L-UAL pilots. It may not be perfect, but I will go on record saying I think it will pass.
Joe Peck
IAD - UALFO
756-FO
D.O.H. 4/1/96
11-17-2012 | 03:25 PM
#29
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From: UAL retired
One last note: A mediocre contract in a company that is growing is superior to a great contract in a company that is failing. Just ask the L-CAL pilots if they would rather have been at UAL in 2001 or CAL in 2001. Moving from FO to CAP is a way better pay raise and life improver than getting one day off more on reserve or having 2 years more in seniority in a company like USAir where 20 years still doesn't get you a captain's seat.
11-17-2012 | 03:33 PM
#30
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If we reject this contract, remember there are 4 players involved: management, UAL-ALPA, CAL-ALPA, and the NMB. After talking to my local reps in person, it is my belief that the NMB will be less than sympathetic to our demands as the absolute economic value of this contract has been determined to exceed that of Delta's contract. So what is it that we want changed after a "NO" vote? Higher pay? Better work rules? More days off? Protection for UAL furloughees? A bigger retro check? I know it is hard to imagine, but if the union were to ask the NMB for the right to strike for any of these reasons I see little support outside of the pilot community, and the UAL and CAL desires may even work to oppose each other thereby actively prolonging the process perhaps indefinitely a la USAir.
Bottom Line: This contract has vast QWOL improvements for L-CAL. A huge pay raise for L-UAL Airbus pilots, and a sizable pay raise for the rest of the L-UAL pilots. It may not be perfect, but I will go on record saying I think it will pass.
Joe Peck
IAD - UALFO
756-FO
D.O.H. 4/1/96
Bottom Line: This contract has vast QWOL improvements for L-CAL. A huge pay raise for L-UAL Airbus pilots, and a sizable pay raise for the rest of the L-UAL pilots. It may not be perfect, but I will go on record saying I think it will pass.
Joe Peck
IAD - UALFO
756-FO
D.O.H. 4/1/96
As far as what I'll need to see changed; let's start with tightening the contractual language so that item's aren't left open for management's interpretation. We all know that this agreement is based on business and not friendship, so let's not kid ourselves into believing that management "may" do their best for us. If the NMB finds this as an unreasonable request, then I really don't care about what they think. If this leads to a USAir/AmWest deal as a result, so be it. Jmho.
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