AxlF16

You're way off here. I'm a Jan 97 hire and I would NEVER have been placed next to Jan 2008 hires. Your proposed list is an abomination and you shouldn't try to defend it. Look me up... Christian Rose, DOH 20Jan97, never furloughed. Explain how your paragraph above fits.

Airhoss

That is because 99 hires are not matched with 05-07 hires on the proposed SLI list. they are stapled to the bottom just like me as a 97 hire. STAPLED.

And there is no rationalizing around that one. No matter which way you twist it. The proposal that offers this inequity is wrong on a fundamental level.

LAX Pilot

Plus '99 hires would NOT be next to '13 hires. There are 2000 hires, 2001 hires, 2007 hires, and 2008 hires.

An '07 hire had 3 years of longevity on the merger date, a '99 hire close to 11. Almost 4 times as much longevity.

Really

Ok, after reading my post I need to clarify my point!! I was not referring to the Proposed CAL SLI list that was published last week. I was just trying to say longevity for seniority purposes is rarely ever given to furloughed pilots! I can say from experience as a CAL 92 hire/94 furlough all that I keep was pass travel seniority! Many posts that I have read state they can't believe they are being put next to a 07 CAL hire that just got out of H.S. Many CAL guys hired in the 05-08 were not all young and inexperienced! Just like if merger never happened the new hires at UAL (if they happened this yr) would have been the same type pilot! Now as far as Hoss, AXL, and Lax are concerned I'm not going to say where you belong on the list because it would take to long to explain my reasons. (I believe you probably wouldn'd agree w/some of them anyway.) All I'll say is that our GUT tells us whats right and if its not fair and it favors us we will tell whoever will listen why it's right. My gut told me the list that the CAL mec presented will not look like the Final list. I think all 3 of you guys will end up very close % wise as you are now. And sorry Lax as much as you think "size of the Ship" matters, I just don't think it matters as much as you might want!! (little pun intended!)

Really

There are many Bubbles in every list!! CAL had a big bubble after 98. And UAL has a big Bubble going on right now. After I was hired at Cal in 92 then furloughed in 94 we had a Bubble while I believe UAL was hiring during that period. I didn't claify this above. While I'd love to get credit while you guys were hiring I don't expect it. We were not merged at the time. I know career expectations but, how far back do we go and for what reasons? Lax you want credit for A/C size, what about a CAL guy that says " we did a fulough mitigation ie.-workrules, to keep our pilots, and UAL didn't. (I could be wrong!) We should get credit for that! There are so many other examples I could give but, would take to long! I'm sure there are many that the UAL guys could tell me, thats why I read these posts. Not to change my mind or yours, just to understand all the issues more. The advantage I have is I've flown with several UAL pilots both invol. and vol. furlough. I've enjoyed flying with them and look forward to this being over!! I do hope in the end your GUT tells you the list was done fairly!!

Sunvox

In the SWAG I presented if the silos are sorted by relative seniority (or straight ratio calculations as is the norm) I end up as number 7083 out of 10508 active pilots on the merger date. So I would be 67% in this new list with this methodology. I was 4239 out of 6116 active at UAL which was 69%. So my SWAG methodology moves me up 2% relative seniority.

• WB-CP UAL(1557)/CAL(0741) new list numbers 00000 to 02298
• NB-CP UAL(0997)/CAL(1220) new list numbers 02299 to 04515
• WB-FO UAL(2384)/CAL(1250) new list numbers 04516 to 08149
• NB-FO UAL(1178)/CAL(1181) new list numbers 08150 to 10508
• FL-FO UAL(1447)/CAL(0197) new list numbers 10508 to 12154
• CN-FO UAL(0000)/CAL(0577) new list numbers 12155 to 12731

Staller

You can't ratonalize greed/thieft - when you make it up as you go along and expect it to be accepted, it's no wonder the cal pilots had such a bad contract and alpa leadership. It's a shame pierce didn't put you on the cal negotiating committee, the ual pilots would be in real trouble. Have fun at the bottom of the list!

Probe

Sunvox;
A few months ago I was laid up as well and ran a couple of SWAGs, best and worst case for each side. Your numbers are a bit more exact since we have more info now, but my results were almost exactly as your own. Hopefully the final list will fall somewhere in between your two SWAGs and we can all live with it.

UAL hired a MASSIVE number of pilots between the beginning of 95 and 9/11. The most senior of these have been able to hold 756 Captain. The most junior have been furloughed twice, yet their DOH is only 6-7 years apart. Unfortunately this does cause some inequalities (on both sides) depending on how the final list is done. There are going to some very unhappy folks in the bottom 25%

UCH has shrank every year since the merger date. This year we are scheduled to drop between .7 and 1.7% RASM. The final numbers might be worse due to the Lithium Liner debacle.

Post merger, ALL of l-CAL's grows has been as a result of shrinking l-UAL. The really junior folks at l-CAL that were looking at quick Captain upgrades are going to be really dissappointed I think, and those that are holding that position are going to be at the bottom of their base for a 5-10 years unless they bid off.

Sunvox

Thanks for the calm, cool, and collected discussion!

I assume from your position listing on APC that you are l-CAL, and if that's true then your honest thoughts are even more appreciated.

Shrek

Probe is l-UAL that crossed over to the Black side doing IOE as we speak.