Airline Pilot Central Forums - Capt with Capt; FO with FO=LOL

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- - Capt with Capt; FO with FO=LOL (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/74225-capt-capt-fo-fo-lol.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalGuy (Post 1391128)

Not following your numbers.....Your Sketch doesn't add up.

Fuzzy math at best.

My apologies.

I am attempting to rapidly post on several threads and formulated the concept on my way home tonight on a 50 seat RJ which is never pleasant, but all that aside you will find that I have changed the numbers in keeping with the overly simplistic math of 2:1 international Cap to FO ratio on the UAL side. Regardless of failures on the simple math the concept is sound. CAL's proposal will elevate CAL pilots in relative seniority and traditional methodology will effect the reverse.

I am not drawing judgement on either argument; I am simply illuminating the facts for those that may not yet have fully comprehended the portent of their MEC's tact.

Thank-you for the catch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mwindaji (Post 1391137)

Some of us don't come to argue. I just stated a fact. I will leave the arguments to those we have to represent us. I have the greatest faith in the guys that represent me on the ISL issue and I will live with the final outcome. However, I do support your right to waste your time on this issue.

Waste my time on this issue. So you are saying that I am wasting my time, and by allegory, I am stupid.

Why would you say that? It is a pure attempt to insult me directly.

My name is Joe Peck. I am IADFO-164511, and someday I will meet you in a bar and/or we will fly together. I never once gave you cause to attack me personally, and if we were in a crewroom talking this over I am certain we would have more in common than we have differences.

What amazes me most about the internet is how quick people are to go for the jugular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mwindaji (Post 1391114)

You forgot to look under TI, training, under the sCAL side.

And for that matter how is this a "fact"?

The number of Captains relevant to a discussion on ISL will be the number of Captains at the time of the "snapshot" so your fact is anything but, it is in fact a means to argue on the internet your personal side of the discussion with little to no regard for the opposing argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 1391147)

There are lots of facts. Most of them are irrelevant at any particular time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxlF16 (Post 1391151)

There are lots of facts. Most of them are irrelevant at any particular time.

Well, I certainly appreciate your support in my attempt to discuss the matter factually. Not that I disagree with your premise . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 1391156)

Well, I certainly appreciate your support in my attempt to discuss the matter factually. Not that I disagree with your premise . . .

I think you screwed up by showing right up front that you have a solid grasp on the relevant facts and a broad knowledge base from which to draw information -- now you won't find anyone to argue with you :) It's a shame really, I was looking forward to reading more from you in those arguments. It's refreshing to read posts from someone who actually understands the actual financial conditions and the implications of those conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 1391146)

Joe,

I apologize. I did not mean to insult you. IMO to argue over the ISL is a waste of time. We agree to disagree on this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunvox (Post 1391147)

The fact that I was pointing out was he forgot to add the pilots in training/upgrade that we're not counted in his numbers. On the sCAL side the pilots under TI are not included in either the CA or FO numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAX Pilot (Post 1391000)

Exactly. The charade of pilots who are very junior getting Captain seats of out seniority because the work rules and flying is so horrible on reserve or being junior doesn't mean every CAL pilot who passed up a Captain bid should get a seniority advantage.

UAL brings far more Captain positions as well as far more widebody flying. This means that there will be more United pilots by far that occupy the top half of the seniority list and more CAL pilots in the bottom half.

Its not the fault of United pilots that pilots at CAL chose to pass up Captain, while at United, more pilots didn't pass up the position. Its also a result of only have a couple pilot bases, and larger bases are more likely to have position bidding variability. Smaller bases are more likely to have position bidding efficiency. UAL having multiple bases around the US means less commuters and more pilots willing to be on reserve. Plus the much better reserve rules make it easier to upgrade as soon as possible instead of what happened at CAL.

I think the arbitrator is going to see right through that one.

It would be ironic if the lousy work rules at CAL (which is what caused lineholding FOs to not bid Captain) ended up benefitting them.

It would also be ironic if CAL pilots having super bases in undesirable cities ended up benefitting them, as they lateral and bid out to decent places to live.

Stick to the merger policy....

Longevity (when was the pilot hired)
Status and Category (how many of each type of aircraft were brought)
Career Expectations (what equipment pilots would end up on)

The rest is folly and speculation.

You must be tired of being wrong by now.

How can you say captains are stealing seats out of seniority order? First, do u have a copy of the ISL already. That is the only way one would know the seats were taken out of order. Oh, that's right, still separate lists and operating separately in terms of the pilots. If you care to look at other airlines, captain usually falls to around 65%. It's just normal some people choosing the money and the others quality of life.

As to sticking to the merger policy, please do it for once. You are like so many taking text out of context. Those items must be considered with NO particular weight. Guess what, that means they can look at 10,000 different things if they want and use them. If you don't think they won't look at past precedents and try to minimize the gains and losses I can't help you, I will explain it to u in September ( maybe). These items must be considered in the big picture, that's it, stop reading too much into it!

As to wide bodies, yes UAL has more. But 67% voted to not consider the 763 a wide body. You can't blame jay and say he forced it on us in a SLI grab if u voted for it. Sorry, no cake and eat it to!

Quote:

Originally Posted by thor2j (Post 1391179)

But 67% voted to not consider the 763 a wide body.

Keep referring to 67%, but the truth is that your simple minded quest (backed by the weak dick threat of blocking progress on the JCBA) to shape the JCBA in a way that furthers you SLI argument has hurt all of us.