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Originally Posted by APC225
(Post 1390228)
Their argument on FO longevity and furlough inclusion is very rigorous I think.
I just don't see it. If they have so many junior FO's with all that longevity, then how come they're junior FO's still? Right sizing? Why should that matter? If I paint my house and remodel the bathroom that had water leaking from the ceiling so that I can sell it, do I deserve some cash above market value because I did so? No I made those repairs so I could compete in the current market. If promises were made, then produce the testimony from Glenn AND Larry ... I did like the USA today style pie chart: There is a huge piece of UAL narrow body that wasn't mentioned, because its all in a pie belonging to SkyWest, Mesa, et al. Thus the super senior mainline NB FO's |
Originally Posted by Speedtape
(Post 1390261)
Originally Posted by APC225
(Post 1390228)
Their argument on FO longevity and furlough inclusion is very rigorous.
I just don't see it. If they have so many junior FO's with all that longevity, then how come they're junior FO's still? Right sizing? Why should that matter? If I paint my house and remodel the bathroom that had water leaking from the ceiling so that I can sell it, do I deserve some cash above market value because I did so? No I made those repairs so I could compete in the current market. If promises were made, then produce the testimony from Glenn AND Larry ... I did like the USA today style pie chart: There is a huge piece of UAL narrow body that wasn't mentioned, because its all in a pie belonging to SkyWest, Mesa, et al. Thus the super senior mainline NB FO's |
Candidly, Congressman,” Mr. Smisek concluded, “we are eking out a hand-to-mouth existence.” See C-Span Video Clip, Smisek to Congress, at Smisek to Congress - C-SPAN Video Library (beginning at 0:34). And for Continental, after the Delta-Northwest merger, it had to have a merger with United; there was no other option. See Darren Shannon, United Continental CEO is Person of the Year, Aviation Week, December. Had United not merged with Continental, United was positioned to pursue its discussions with US Airways, the fear Mr. Smisek candidly acknowledged, creating an alternative powerhouse and leaving Continental on the sidelines and in deep trouble. The UAL Committee intends to present a balanced picture of the two pre-merger airlines – United Air Lines (“UAL”) and Continental Airlines (“CAL”) – warts and all, in the context of the intensely competitive and cyclical airline industry environment in which each found itself when they announced their merger in 2010. Each had its strengths and weaknesses and we will not shy away from addressing both, as well as the dramatic effect on the industry – and the likely fortunes of these two airlines – of the game- changing merger between Delta Airlines and Northwest Airlines in 2008. For once in many years I am proud of my ALPA representatives for their work, regardless of the outcome. The CAL willingness to ignore the majority of ALPA merger policy and failure to discuss the opposing views is unfortunate. Continental and United were headed in different directions financially when they announced their merger at the end of one of the most difficult decades in the history of the airline industry. Continental earned more than $1.0 billion in operating income from January 2000 through September 2010, while United lost $7.8 billion. Continental’s performance shines a light on one facet of the financial solidity that it has maintained, largely through shifting capacity to more lucrative international markets ahead of the industry. Continental flew a greater percentage of its block hours internationally at the time of the merger than United or any other U.S. airline. These facts illustrate the reality that the Continental pilots had better career expectations than their United counterparts in 2010, and in the decade leading up to the merger. Unlike the United pilots, the Continental pilots flew for a financially stable airline. And, there Mr. Arbitrator is the argument. So what say you . . . |
Candidly, Congressman,” Mr. Smisek concluded, “we are eking out a hand-to-mouth existence.” See C-Span Video Clip, Smisek to Congress, at Smisek to Congress - C-SPAN Video Library (beginning at 0:34). And for Continental, after the Delta-Northwest merger, it had to have a merger with United; there was no other option. See Darren Shannon, United Continental CEO is Person of the Year, Aviation Week, December. |
Originally Posted by APC225
(Post 1390422)
Puleeze. He was fighting for his $14M not CAL's survival. What you expect him to say. He's a mouthpiece. The numbers speak for themselves.
The CAL argument is drawing trend lines through bankruptcy and the collapse of the economy in 2008. Such trend lines are arguably meaningless. The facts from 2008 and 2009 must stand alone, but CAL is free to argue otherwise. I await your response. But No matter the outcome I'll still buy the beers for the first CAL pilot I get to fly with just to celebrate having put this behind us. |
Originally Posted by APC225
(Post 1390422)
Puleeze. He was fighting for his $14M not CAL's survival. What you expect him to say. He's a mouthpiece. The numbers speak for themselves.
Your right the numbers speak for themselves...and theyll be much much clearer after all the fudge is removed. |
Originally Posted by Sunvox
(Post 1390427)
If you are serious and want to argue numbers,I will be very happy to do so, but I will preface that I have an MBA from Dartmouth College and I can assure that the 2008 2009 annual reports are a virtual dead heat financially, but if you want to discuss financials in a level headed and factual manner I will gladly join you in a debate on a new thread dedicated to the topic.
The CAL argument is drawing trend lines through bankruptcy and the collapse of the economy in 2008. Such trend lines are arguably meaningless. The facts from 2008 and 2009 must stand alone, but CAL is free to argue otherwise. I await your response. But No matter the outcome I'll still buy the beers for the first CAL pilot I get to fly with just to celebrate having put this behind us. Compared to UAL, our fleet was modern and we had airframes on order. What did UAL have on order at the end of 2009? I believe nothing. We might of been at a dead heat in 2008 and 2009 financially, but our airlines were headed in different directions as pointed out in our statement. and I completely agree, good to get this behind us! In the long run, i think this merger will benefit all of us. As long as our so very talented senior managers don't screw it up. |
Originally Posted by routemap
(Post 1390449)
Compared to UAL, our fleet was modern and we had airframes on order. What did UAL have on order at the end of 2009? I believe nothing.
(Specifically in reference to the UAL orders for 50 widebody aircraft with purchase rights for another 100.) |
Originally Posted by routemap
(Post 1390449)
According to CAL's pre hearing statement, United lost 7.8 billion from 2000 to 2010. While CAL earned 1.0 billion.
Compared to UAL, our fleet was modern and we had airframes on order. What did UAL have on order at the end of 2009? I believe nothing. We might of been at a dead heat in 2008 and 2009 financially, but our airlines were headed in different directions as pointed out in our statement. and I completely agree, good to get this behind us! In the long run, i think this merger will benefit all of us. As long as our so very talented senior managers don't screw it up. Between 1998 and 2000 UAL earned more money than the entire airline industry earned in the history of aviation. That didn't stop UAL from entering bankruptcy 3 years later. Past results are no indication of the future especially after paradigm shifting events like 9/11, SARs, and the Deta/Northwest merger. CAL's results prior to 2008 are arguably irrelevant , but again one can use them in an argument if one finds it reassuring. The question remains whether or not independent minds will agree. The central question involves whether or not one believes further industry consolidation was inevitable or not. If not then CAL surely had the brighter future, if yes then UAL had the more certain future. |
Originally Posted by Sunvox
(Post 1390454)
Past results are no indication of the future
Their risk level is solely determined by level of risk based on happened historical events to mitigate their plausible deniability of responsibility |
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