|
Originally Posted by Skyflyin
(Post 1489771)
You may like to repeat that ST, but what the CAL MC proposed was exactly what was awarded in the Delta/NWA merger and not very far from the UAL proposal. I was surprised that the arbs did not define what "awarded training" meant, just for the reason that the two sides seem to be arguing now.
Besides, I wasn't talking about the 14-02 guys, but the guys that would be bumped that are already in the position. |
Originally Posted by SpecialTracking
(Post 1489779)
What the arbitrators wrote was definitive. Who cares what was awarded at DAL/NWA? I guess if it has worked for LCAL in the past , they will continue to feed at the trough until it is empty.
|
Originally Posted by jsled
(Post 1489714)
They already did it......
Date: September 6, 2013 Expires: September 16, 2013 To: Pilots | From: Crew Resources/WHQCM Displacement Awards Per 737 MOU Eligible Pilots Only The following only affects pilots who are entitled to a displacement pursuant to the 737 MOU dated July 10, 2013. This will only impact pilots who are not in training, have not received a training assignment bid (TAB) award, or have not been pay protected for an assignment. If you have received a CCS message, you are eligible for displacement rights under the MOU above. A pilot with displacement rights is permitted to remain in his/her staffed position, or select another category to which their seniority can hold, which may include your prior award. For this interim process, no pilot will be affected by another pilot exercising their displacement rights. However, if future analysis determines an excess of pilot staffing exists, there is the potential for category/BES displacements under section 8 of the contract. Pilots who do not wish to change their staffed position do not need to respond to this bulletin. To facilitate this decision, a Junior Pilot Table (sample below) will indicate the junior- most pilot assuming the future movements as of the most recent TAB. Pilots holding displacements will be counted in their present operating positions. A pilot deciding to exercise displacement rights and select a new category must email that election to [email protected] by 0800 CDT September 16th. A printable form with required information for pilot election is provided on the following page. Should a pilot submit more than one form, only the last submission will be considered. An immediate return email response will be generated to confirm receipt of the request. Upon Processing, participating pilots will receive CCS notice of the revised award. The revised award will be referenced as 14_02D for future reference. So, I am betting that is the sticking point. Not so much whether they are eligible for displacement rights, but more that they are not eligible to go to a training class that had not started prior to the SLI. So, if they aren't eligible to start training then they would definitely be eligible for a bump, but the fight is prob over whether the training assignments awarded in the NOV TAFB are still valid. |
Originally Posted by Skyflyin
(Post 1489797)
What they wrote was not definitive as I just explained and that is why the two sides are arguing now (if it's true they are arguing). One of the many mistakes the arbitrators made IMO.
|
The Way I See It
1. The SFO MOU gave displacement rights and training rights, but also stated the arb. award would take precedence.
2. The arb. award seems to contradict the MOU therefore there is a dispute between the company/CALALPA v UALALPA. That's fine. What else is new. B U T.......this bid 14-02D is not on Skynet like every other CAL bid for all to see. I didn't even know about it. I would bet MOST UAL pilots don't know about it. WHere is the company communication? Is this a secret bid? I want to see who is involved and what the outcome is....just like every other bid, vacancy or displacement, in my 16 year career. NO GAMES. The company needs to man up and TELL us what is what. UFB. Sled |
Sled,
Those involved will only man up when they are caught and forced to do so. |
Come on Skyflyin. The S-CAL guys are going to argue the meaning of "in the process of training". Who is your legal counsel now Bill Clinton?
|
Originally Posted by Birddog
(Post 1489730)
Damn Jsled,
You're a resourceful little monkey. It didn't take you long to find that gem. I know I tried to wind you up earlier, but they are trying this. The game isn't over---they haven't "done" it yet. You said you can wait a year? That wait from A-320 FO to 737 CA is $60,000. Still don't mind waiting? SLed the monkey |
Originally Posted by Probe
(Post 1489772)
CALFO;
They are already flying inefficient trips. There won't be enough 80 hour months to go around. There simply won't be enough block hours. Yes, some of the Captains will retire straight out of the 75 fleet. But most of the pilots will not. Bumping gives you a paid move, free PS commuter passes, and no training freeze. Few will bid off until they gut bumped. I wouldn't. 400 retirements a year is only 3% of our pilot group. This is nowhere near "massive". Just "normal". 3% a year for 33 years equals? All of us. This is simply a normal rate of retirement. As for people not bidding off until they are bumped; again you are thinking downward not upward. During a reduction pilots get bumped down. Right now they can bid up. Do you really think that a mid level 757 cap that can now bid over to the 777 is going to sit around and wait to get bumped? I doubt it. |
Originally Posted by CALFO
(Post 1489847)
Every pilot at ual is already entitled to both a free merger move and as well as a career move. The percentage of retirements is closer to 4, but its not the percentage it's the numbers. 400 pilots leaving from the top of the food chain creates a ton of vacancies.
As for people not bidding off until they are bumped; again you are thinking downward not upward. During a reduction pilots get bumped down. Right now they can bid up. Do you really think that a mid level 757 cap that can now bid over to the 777 is going to sit around and wait to get bumped? I doubt it. Sled |
Here’s what I think is going on with the first combined United vacancy bid. The last S-CAL bid, Bid 14-02 , was offered and awarded earlier this year. Why would the company put out a huge bid like this when the company knew once the SLI Award & Opinion came out in late August/early September that the bids of those not in training would be cancelled? What was the Flight Operations plan for the post-ISL world?
The day the ISL was to be released, 3 September, Flight Operations manpower planning was said to have awarded Training Assignment’s (TAB’s) for Bid 14-02 but the agreements spell out these bids would be cancelled the next day. Why award the TAB’s? Then the ISL Award comes out and less than 72 hours later Flight Operation manpower sends out this CCS message: Date: September 6, 2013 Expires: September 16, 2013 To: Pilots | From: Crew Resources/WHQCM Displacement Awards Per 737 MOU Eligible Pilots Only The following only affects pilots who are entitled to a displacement pursuant to the 737 MOU dated July 10, 2013. This will only impact pilots who are not in training, have not received a training assignment bid (TAB) award, or have not been pay protected for an assignment. If you have received a CCS message, you are eligible for displacement rights under the MOU above. A pilot with displacement rights is permitted to remain in his/her staffed position, or select another category to which their seniority can hold, which may include your prior award. For this interim process, no pilot will be affected by another pilot exercising their displacement rights. However, if future analysis determines an excess of pilot staffing exists, there is the potential for category/BES displacements under section 8 of the contract. Pilots who do not wish to change their staffed position do not need to respond to this bulletin. To facilitate this decision, a Junior Pilot Table (sample below) will indicate the junior- most pilot assuming the future movements as of the most recent TAB. Pilots holding displacements will be counted in their present operating positions. A pilot deciding to exercise displacement rights and select a new category must email that election to [email protected] by 0800 CDT September 16th. A printable form with required information for pilot election is provided on the following page. Should a pilot submit more than one form, only the last submission will be considered. An immediate return email response will be generated to confirm receipt of the request. Upon Processing, participating pilots will receive CCS notice of the revised award. The revised award will be referenced as 14_02D for future reference. As you see above this information was not communicated to the S-UAL pilots too. There has been a lack of communication that would add any clarity to this matter. Why hasn’t Flight Operations communicated their rationale for proceeding down this path? Then this CCS message came out: CCS MESSAGE: DISPLACEMENT BIDDING AND AWARDS The Company has notified via CCS message all pilots (and only those pilots) who have a displacement right due to the SFO MOU of the impending Displacement Bid 14-02D. That CCS message contains a link to a document explaining the Company's view of the process. If you believe you should have been included but did not receive the CCS message, you should contact the Grievance Committee at the union office to check, as well as put in a bid according to the requirements of the 14-02D bid. Click HERE to view the bid document (company login required). We have had a number of inquiries about this bid. These are the important things to remember: If you have not been trained, do not have a training date, or do not hold an award on the Oct or Nov TAB awards, then your position on System Bid 14-02 or 14-02A no longer exists. Instead, you now have a displacement right. If you do nothing, the Company will assume that you want to stay in your currently staffed position. You now have the right to bid into any Category provided there is someone junior to you on the ISL currently staffed in that Category. You can bid for the position that was dissolved from System Bid 14-02 or 14-02A, or you can bid for something else, including any position on what was formerly known as the legacy UAL side. The only position you cannot bid for is the B-744 (for former L-CAL pilots) and the B-787 (for former L-UAL pilots) because of the ISL conditions and restrictions contained in the Award. We do not know the plans for when the Company intends to train pilots who are awarded positions on this bid.[/SIZE] So Flight Operations manpower sent out these CCS messages telling the S-CAL pilots they have displacement rights in violation of multiple agreements as you’ll see. None of this was communicated to the S-UAL pilots. The Junior Man tables used for displacement purposes now include the most junior pilot possessing a TAB, which means Flight Operations definitely planned then to train the TABs up to 01 Dec and use any junior dates within to determine displacement awards. Furthermore, the 14-02 pilots get not only a second at bat on bidding with a displacement, they also now get to bid S-UAL metal and domiciles if they like. Here’s what the agreements spell out for Qualification Training Post-ISL. From the ISL: Pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed qualification training for a new position (e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they are being or have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the Integrated Seniority List. So any pilot who had not started training in the training center before 04 Sep 2013 should have had their training cancelled. However, according to the TPA Para 5 B-3: (iii) The Integrated Seniority List shall not contain conditions or restrictions that substantially increase the costs associated with training above those normally associated with the merger of two airlines. So the company is allowed to use their interpretation of what would substantially increase their training costs. So the company may have determined it would be too costly for them to cancel training dates before 01 Dec 2013. But those whose training was cancelled are not entitled to bumping rights. This would effectively reward them for the delays up to this point and give them an award for training that should not exist. The SLI arbitrators even warned to protect these pilots would interfere with the fair operation of the ISL forever. The SFO MOU doesn’t grant displacement rights to these pilots whose training is cancelled either. This is because of the following in the MOU: In the event the decision and award of the SLI Arbitration Board Is in conflict with this agreement, the decision and award will prevail: however, in no case will a pilot who is pay protected to a position by this or other agreement lose his or her pay protection and position protection unless he voluntarily bids and is awarded a lower-numbered Equipment/pay band as set forth in Section 8-D-l-d on a subsequent vacancy or displacement bid in which case the pay protection will cease upon the activation date of that award. Furthermore, the UPA doesn’t provide displacement rights for pilots whose training is cancelled either because it is not in effect until after the SLI. From the UPA: 8 : Vacancies and Staffing Implementation to be developed by the Joint Implementation Team (JIT) At SLI the JIT will develop a process to provide for combined bidding of vacancies It is the company that will decide how the vacancy bidding process itself will proceed. The company knows how much the training pipeline can hold, future growth and reduction, domicile plans, etc. But the thorny issue is displacement rights for those pilots whose training is cancelled. The issue of displacements for pilots whose training is cancelled is contract basics. The company is a signatory to the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA), the United Pilot Agreement (UPA), the San Francisco Memorandum of Understanding (SFO MOU) and said they would enforce the Seniority List Integration (SLI) Award. What is in those agreements and discussed above appears to be black and white contract law about displacement rights for pilots whose training is cancelled---there are none. The company can unilaterally ignore agreements between us as they have sometimes done, but if that happens everyone loses from the resulting grievances, lawsuits, ill-will, etc. The Condition and Restriction (C&R) addressing Qualification Training is one of two Conditions and Restrictions (C&R's) in the SLI Award. The other C&R is Widebody Fences. Was the company’s plan to ignore one C&R and not the other? I've pasted the pertinent portion of the C&R below because the Arbitrators words explain it best: The CAL Committee’s training protection proposals include “a pilot who has been awarded a position but has not commenced or completed training.” (Emphasis added). That expanded definition would have the Board sweep into protective coverage some 400 CAL pilots awarded tentative February 2014 positions in the January 2013 CAL Bid 14-02. As of the close of these arbitration hearings, many of those individuals had not even been awarded a training date, let alone begun training. Moreover, treating them as “currently in” those positions or “in the process of completing training” would unilaterally rewrite language mutually agreed to by the CAL pilots, the UAL pilots and the Company (See TPA Section 5-B. Acceptance of the Integrated Seniority List, in Appendix 1). There simply is no fair and equitable basis for this Board to award what the CAL Committee proposes. Under the guise of protecting pilots from displacement from “then-current positions”, it would extend such protection to pilots who don’t actually have such positions at all. In short, if granted, it would interfere with the fair operation of the ISL forever by placing CAL pilots immovably in positions that their ISL seniority would not entitle them to hold. For all of those reasons, this Board did not adopt the CAL Committees' proposed C&R Numbers 1(b) and 1(c). Some people say don’t worry retirements will allow advancement. Yes, retirement may lessen the impact of granting displacement rights to pilots whose training was cancelled. But the airline industry is a turbulent industry. So let's what if the worse case. The company grants displacement rights to these pilots whose training is cancelled. This will impact everyone's ability to bid vacancies in the future. Then a year down the road the economy hits a brick wall, hiring stops, and pilots that would have bid and been awarded 737 Captain are now stranded as first officers for years while pilots junior to them are Captains. What if the so-called pilot shortage is used to lift all age restrictions for pilots a year down the road and pilots were unable to bid the seat they wanted to due to being blocked be one of these displaced pilots? We could what if this to death. The what if's are eliminated if the agreements are followed as they are spelled out. The agreements offer clarity. The issue is there are no displacement rights for pilots whose training was cancelled and it is clearly contained within these four contracts and agreements, and as we are all aware a contract is a contract. Furthermore, retirements creating advancement doesn't lessen the fact granting of displacement rights to these pilots is a violation of the seniority rights of ALL pilots at United Airlines. Seniority is sacrosanct in a union and to throw seniority out with the bath water on this issue would be a tragedy. So Flight Operations is very determined in granting displacement rights to these pilots. But it doesn’t end there. I thought that the S-UAL 757 bumps would ripple through the system and slightly bring the S-CAL 737/757 Captain Junior Man numbers down to something more reasonably aligned with the completed ISL. I also was amazed the company would spend the money to train the Bid 14-02 displaced pilots and then have to pay once again when the most junior will likely require retraining from being displaced a second time from the 757 bumps. But it appears that Flight Operations wants to protect the Bid 14-02 group after they exercise their displacements from ever being displaced. I would guess this will likely be done by throttling vacancies and overstaffing domiciles (affects profits). The latest S-UAL SSC newsletter alludes to this: The company is planning to deal with reductions, if needed, primarily with attrition. If this is not completely effective, there will be Displacements between vacancy bids. The UPA displacement process is completely different from Vacancy Bids and will be explained at a later date. So the pilots from the 14-02D bid will act as “blockers” delaying the chance for all United pilots to use their seniority rights to bid what should be vacancies. The impact of an improper decision here will affect ALL pilots at United Airlines. And for what purpose? The ill-will and lawsuits from this will be poison for years. I believe an alternative would be just call the Arbitrator and ask him what they meant to happen or we could use use the Arbitration Dispute Resolution process. This will be decided and I believe decided correctly. |
CALFO;
I have to disagree. You are looking at the UAL world through the rose-colored l-CAL glasses you have subsisted in the last 3 years. There is no system growth at UAL. There is shrinkage. Pilots don't all retire off the 777 and 400. Many retire off narrow bodies, and a not insignificant number will retire as wide body FO's. I think the displacements will more than make up for the retirements for a while. 6 months to a year. The few vacancy bids will be on wide body captain, and 737 bases that the company plans on growing quickly. I do believe one or two 737 bases will end up with WAY too many Captains. DEN probably being the biggest as many UAL pilots will bump there. 400 retirements a year/12,000 pilots is only 3.3%. This year there are only about 300 planned retirements. 2.5% this year. |
Originally Posted by Probe
(Post 1489867)
CALFO;
I have to disagree. You are looking at the UAL world through the rose-colored l-CAL glasses you have subsisted in the last 3 years. There is no system growth at UAL. There is shrinkage. Pilots don't all retire off the 777 and 400. Many retire off narrow bodies, and a not insignificant number will retire as wide body FO's. I think the displacements will more than make up for the retirements for a while. 6 months to a year. The few vacancy bids will be on wide body captain, and 737 bases that the company plans on growing quickly. I do believe one or two 737 bases will end up with WAY too many Captains. DEN probably being the biggest as many UAL pilots will bump there. 400 retirements a year/12,000 pilots is only 3.3%. This year there are only about 300 planned retirements. 2.5% this year. |
CALFO;
I guess we will just have to disagree then. As afar as the company attempting to give super-seniority to some CAL pilots, I wouldn't worry about it. The company cannot abrogate seniority because it suits a few people in Manpower. It is simply not done. The untrained pilots from bid 14-02 are the most junior. So junior, that even most of the untrained captains could only displace to 320 FO on the former l-UAL fleets. All, or almost all, of the l-UAL 757 pilots that will be displaced can bump to ANY 737 Captain position, EWR 756 or IAH 756 Captain position. The displacements that will happen off the SFO 400 base will be able to hold these as well, with lots of seniority. The company CANNOT abrogate seniority. It simply is not done. |
Originally Posted by SpecialTracking
(Post 1489802)
C'mon man. The TPA was definitive but that didn't stop JPOS from arguing that pilots with future training dates could keep their bids when it clearly stated in training or has completed training.
Edit: No it doesn't define it either. |
Originally Posted by Birddog
(Post 1489817)
Come on Skyflyin. The S-CAL guys are going to argue the meaning of "in the process of training". Who is your legal counsel now Bill Clinton?
|
Originally Posted by Skyflyin
(Post 1489933)
Oh, you're going to switch now to the TPA was definitive. Does the TPA define what "in training" means? I'm not sure, let me look it up.
Edit: No it doesn't define it either. Let me help you out..... If you show up to work and fly an actual airplane, you're NOT in training. If you show up to work and fly a simulator, you ARE in training. The company may try to violate the SLI, but it will cost them dearly. They may end up pay protecting every LUAL pilot senior to the 14-02 junior captains who were supposed to lose their bid. |
Untied;
Agreed. It may not be as severe as you implied, but it is a slam dunk. The company cannot screw with seniority any more than the union can. The CAL "friends of Fred" program probably pulled lots of BS but it will not fly with a real union on the property. |
Originally Posted by Probe
(Post 1490099)
Untied;
Agreed. It may not be as severe as you implied, but it is a slam dunk. The company cannot screw with seniority any more than the union can. The CAL "friends of Fred" program probably pulled lots of BS but it will not fly with a real union on the property. |
Originally Posted by Slammer
(Post 1490155)
I would have thought that for 6K per day, these ALPA bought Independent arbitrators, would have scratched " in the process", if they didn't want to give flexibility to the company...
|
6k per day? Gee, I wonder why the process lasted until the last day.
They can't screw with seniority. They cannot. This will be handled, quickly. |
Somebody get out the checkbook again and write out a check for $6,000. If we are going to argue about the true meaning of "in the process of completing training" and displacements there is a simple fix.
From the ISL: 9. In accordance with ALPA Merger Policy, this Arbitration Board shallretain jurisdiction to resolve any unresolved disputes between the Continental and United Merger Committees as to the correct placement of a pilot on the ISL in accordance with the Board’s Award, and/or the interpretation or application of these conditions and restrictions. |
Originally Posted by Birddog
(Post 1490701)
Somebody get out the checkbook again and write out a check for $6,000. If we are going to argue about the true meaning of "in the process of completing training" and displacements there is a simple fix.
From the ISL: 9. In accordance with ALPA Merger Policy, this Arbitration Board shallretain jurisdiction to resolve any unresolved disputes between the Continental and United Merger Committees as to the correct placement of a pilot on the ISL in accordance with the Board’s Award, and/or the interpretation or application of these conditions and restrictions. |
Skyflyin,
I take it you are S-CAL? I sure hope ya'll get tired of street fighting us over every issue and turn your attention to elsewhere. I could think of a few other targets of opportunity. I do admire the way you have given us the Three Stooges eye poke, nose slap, and kick to the butt. Maybe even a vase over the head. You guy's have played a mean hand and other than the ISL arbitration ya'll are killers. I'm off to put a raw T-bone over my eye. Respectfully, Birddog |
Originally Posted by Birddog
(Post 1490727)
Skyflyin,
I take it you are S-CAL? I sure hope ya'll get tired of street fighting us over every issue and turn your attention to elsewhere. I could think of a few other targets of opportunity. I do admire the way you have given us the Three Stooges eye poke, nose slap, and kick to the butt. Maybe even a vase over the head. You guy's have played a mean hand and other than the ISL arbitration ya'll are killers. I'm off to put a raw T-bone over my eye. Respectfully, Birddog Hopefully the growth and retirements will continue and mitigate our displacements and delayed upgrades somewhat and the rising tide will lift all ships. All I can do now is to hope and pray. As I said before, in the end we are all the same and I'll think we will see that as we start flying together soon. |
JohnHale? joined Sept 2013?
Staller/Carolsdanger? Again? |
Originally Posted by Probe
(Post 1489867)
CALFO;
I have to disagree. You are looking at the UAL world through the rose-colored l-CAL glasses you have subsisted in the last 3 years. There is no system growth at UAL. There is shrinkage. Pilots don't all retire off the 777 and 400. Many retire off narrow bodies, and a not insignificant number will retire as wide body FO's. I think the displacements will more than make up for the retirements for a while. 6 months to a year. The few vacancy bids will be on wide body captain, and 737 bases that the company plans on growing quickly. I do believe one or two 737 bases will end up with WAY too many Captains. DEN probably being the biggest as many UAL pilots will bump there. 400 retirements a year/12,000 pilots is only 3.3%. This year there are only about 300 planned retirements. 2.5% this year. |
OK, humor isn't allowed here for a while. Back to the previous discussion.
How did you like all those openings on the Vacancy bid yesterday? Couldn't resist. I wonder how Bid 14-02D affected the number of vacancies on Bid 14-02 released yesterday? Bid 14-02D closed on 16 Sept. Does anyone want to share their award on Bid 14-02D? Previous award and new displacement award? Since Bid 14-02D is being talked about as a "Bid", is the company ever going to publish the results of Bid 14-02D in one posting? Or are they just going to notify the individual pilots who received and award via CCS message? |
Originally Posted by Probe
(Post 1490798)
JohnHale? joined Sept 2013?
Staller/Carolsdanger? Again? |
Originally Posted by LAX Pilot
(Post 1490888)
Wrong. All the growth the last 3 years was UAL growth. It was in ORD, DEN, LAX, and SFO. CAL didn't bring any growth. They just stole it from the UAL side.
Dana Carvey goes nuts! - YouTube |
Originally Posted by JohnHale
(Post 1489676)
757/767 pilots from the old Ual side should not bid off the airplane. They will have far more latitude in picking and choosing the positions they could hold with their seniority thru a bump. Just saying and Good Luck!
|
Originally Posted by JohnHale
(Post 1491135)
Just saw the wish list and I think a lot of guys will be bidding. I think a lot West coast and ORD guys will jump on the CAP777IAH and Displaced JFK and IAD guys will jump on the CAP777EWR. Plenty of Narrow body bids to go around. Good Luck - 3 years has been a long time.
Sled |
Originally Posted by LAX Pilot
(Post 1490888)
Wrong. All the growth the last 3 years was UAL growth. It was in ORD, DEN, LAX, and SFO. CAL didn't bring any growth. They just stole it from the UAL side.
|
Originally Posted by jsled
(Post 1491145)
The Sled is in the 80% in DEN,IAH,SFO. 70% LAX, and 50% ORD :eek: 737 Cap. Too bad I won't be holding any of these this time around. Oh well. Maybe i'll just bide my time as a 10% 737 FO DEN. Decisions. Decisions.
Sled |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:42 PM. |
User Alert System provided by
Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) -
vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright ©2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands