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-   -   Vacancy Bid (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/77319-vacancy-bid.html)

jsled 09-24-2013 10:51 AM

Vacancy Bid
 
Where da bid, Yo? Let's get some movement off in this mofo. :confused:

dvhighdrive88 09-24-2013 10:54 AM

Everybody saying out yesterday. Nada on CCS.

Birddog 09-24-2013 11:20 AM

Jsled,

They have to sift through the scraps after awarding the 14-02 bumps in Bid 14-02D.

What were you hoping for 736/757 FO to IAH or EWR?

Cheers,

Birddog

jsled 09-24-2013 11:28 AM

IDK, Birddog. I just want to see what's what. There are Capt's junior to me in all 737 bases, so I got that going for me...which is nice. ;) Just have to wait and see the bid, then develope a game plan in the war room. Bring on da bid!!

Sled

GoCats67 09-24-2013 11:30 AM


Originally Posted by jsled (Post 1489550)
Where da bid, Yo? Let's get some movement off in this mofo. :confused:

At least the CCS Vacancy bid screen now recognizes me despite being a legacy United guy. Not sure how the Seniority number on that screen works. Mine is about 400 numbers better than the ISL award. We haven't had that many guys retire since April and I am senior to all but a few voluntary furloughs and senior to all the involuntary furloughs, so they shouldn't affect it.

GoCats67 09-24-2013 11:31 AM


Originally Posted by jsled (Post 1489569)
IDK, Birddog. I just want to see what's what. There are Capt's junior to me in all 737 bases, so I got that going for me...which is nice. ;) Just have to wait and see the bid, then develope a game plan in the war room. Bring on da bid!!

Sled

and on your death bed, you will recieve total conciosuness.

jsled 09-24-2013 11:33 AM


Originally Posted by GoCats67 (Post 1489570)
At least the CCS Vacancy bid screen now recognizes me despite being a legacy United guy. Not sure how the Seniority number on that screen works. Mine is about 400 numbers better than the ISL award. We haven't had that many guys retire since April and I am senior to all but a few voluntary furloughs and senior to all the involuntary furloughs, so they shouldn't affect it.

I noticed that as well. 424 numbers for me. Can't figure that out.

cadetdrivr 09-24-2013 11:41 AM


Originally Posted by jsled (Post 1489573)
I noticed that as well. 424 numbers for me. Can't figure that out.

Doesn't CCS show "live" numbers and not seniority list numbers so it naturally would not include those on LOA, VF, long term SL, and MIL?

GoCats67 09-24-2013 11:41 AM


Originally Posted by jsled (Post 1489573)
I noticed that as well. 424 numbers for me. Can't figure that out.

Maybe that is why it is delayed? This would be an epic train wreck, even by UAs standards, if the seniority info were f'd up for the first vacancy bid after the ISL!

Birddog 09-24-2013 11:49 AM

Jsled, joking aside vacancy bids will be limited once displacement Bid 14-02D is awarded. Get your expectations down.

jsled 09-24-2013 11:59 AM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489585)
Jsled, joking aside vacancy bids will be limited once displacement Bid 14-02D is awarded. Get your expectations down.

That just means more reserve cushion for the pushin. Just a matter of time. Above the G-line is where I'm wanna be. Know what I'm sayin? This merger is looking better everyday.

SLed

Birddog 09-24-2013 12:08 PM

Jsled,

You are like the energizer bunny. Ok, more blunt. There will be no 737 or 757 Captain bids for a long long time.

Birddod

dvhighdrive88 09-24-2013 12:09 PM

It was supposed to be out yesterday per official comm. Makes one wonder if they ran into some big uh-oh before posting it. Usually, if they miss the day it supposed to be out it a few days after so I wouldn't hold my breath. Shame is it impacts so many people across the board the angst is understandable.

jsled 09-24-2013 12:15 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489600)
Jsled,

You are like the energizer bunny. Ok, more blunt. There will be no 737 or 757 Captain bids for a long long time.

Birddod

We'll see. Like I said, it's just a matter of time. Seniority is forever...or in my case 2033 :cool:

cadetdrivr 09-24-2013 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88 (Post 1489601)
It was supposed to be out yesterday per official comm. Makes one wonder if they ran into some big uh-oh before posting it. Usually, if they miss the day it supposed to be out it a few days after so I wouldn't hold my breath. Shame is it impacts so many people across the board the angst is understandable.

Rumor suggests there was yet another food fight between UALALPA and CALALPA regarding the "conditions and restrictions" in the ISL opinion as it pertains to canceling pre-SLI training awards.

Birddog 09-24-2013 12:32 PM

Seniority is forever, sure. But it doesn't do you a damn bit of good when the bumps fill the place up for a year. Then the bumpee's are protected by the company shrinking the 767's through attrition and going fat on manning reducing vacancies. The S-UAL pilots may be in for a shock. We'll see soon. Hope I'm wrong.

GoCats67 09-24-2013 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489615)
Seniority is forever, sure. But it doesn't do you a damn bit of good when the bumps fill the place up for a year. Then the bumpee's are protected by the company shrinking the 767's through attrition and going fat on manning reducing vacancies. The S-UAL pilots may be in for a shock. We'll see soon. Hope I'm wrong.

I think the very least you are going to see is a bunch of 737 bids to SFO. None of the junior folks will be able to "bump" there since there aren't any pilots holding that assignment (post ISL).

SFO and also ORD need so many more 737 assignments as we go forward to efficiently fly the trips, that I think it will start with SFO bids and once whatever bumps have to happen from 14-02 have their first round complete, you will start to see other bids.

The other thing that I would expect to see is 320 bids in both EWR and IAH. Again the junior folks on 14-02 won't be able to hold Captain on the Bus for some time, so I don't think the bumps off of 14-02 will affect that either.

SpecialTracking 09-24-2013 12:48 PM

1. “Qualification Training”
The UAL Committee’s pilots in training proposed C&R (Number 1.3) is as
follows:
Pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the
process of completing or who have completed qualification training for a new position
(e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they
are being or have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the Integrated
Seniority List.
Two of the CAL Committee's proposed C&Rs address pilots in training:
Neither the implementation of the ISL nor the implementation or expiration of a
condition or restriction herein, in and of itself, shall cause the displacement of any pilot
from his or her then-current position (including a pilot who has been awarded a position
but has not commenced or completed training).
Pilots who, at the time of implementation of the ISL, are in the process of completing or
who have completed qualification training for a new position (e.g., B-777 Captain or A320 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they are being or have been
trained, regardless of their relative standing on the ISL. Pilots awarded new positions
shall be considered as “in the process of completing . . . qualification training for a new
position”, within the meaning of this provision, unless and until they have cancelled their
bids for the new positions, withdrawn from training, failed the training without further
recourse to further training, or successfully completed the training.
The CAL Committee’s training protection proposals include “a pilot who has been
awarded a position but has not commenced or completed training.” (Emphasis added).
That expanded definition would have the Board sweep into protective coverage some
400 CAL pilots awarded tentative February 2014 positions in the January 2013 CAL Bid
14-02. As of the close of these arbitration hearings, many of those individuals had not
even been awarded a training date, let alone begun training. Moreover, treating them as
“currently in” those positions or “in the process of completing training” would
unilaterally rewrite language mutually agreed to by the CAL pilots, the UAL pilots and
the Company (See TPA Section 5-B. Acceptance of the Integrated Seniority List, in
Appendix 1).
There simply is no fair and equitable basis for this Board to award what the CAL
Committee proposes. Under the guise of protecting pilots from displacement from
“then-current positions”, it would extend such protection to pilots who don’t actually
have such positions at all. In short, if granted, it would interfere with the fair operation
of the ISL forever by placing CAL pilots immovably in positions that their ISL seniority
would not entitle them to hold.
For all of those reasons, this Board did not adopt the
CAL Committees' proposed C&R Numbers 1(b) and 1(c).

Birddog 09-24-2013 12:52 PM

Bumps are based off of TABs not activated pilots. So if a TAB has been assigned under the SFO MOU they can bump the crap out of SFO.

I don't know how many of the 400 are left untrained to bump. But you're getting setup for an expensive lesson.

I find it funny how S-UAL pilots always explain it away when they are possibly about to be hosed. Wouldn't you rather see the TPA, UPA, SFO MOU, and ISL enforced?

SpecialTracking 09-24-2013 01:01 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489600)
Jsled,

You are like the energizer bunny. Ok, more blunt. There will be no 737 or 757 Captain bids for a long long time.

Birddod

In other words, a de facto fence imposed on behalf of the s-cal pilots.

Airhoss 09-24-2013 01:04 PM

I already got awarded my DEN 787 captain bid... I guess the fence is down for me?

SpecialTracking 09-24-2013 01:08 PM


Originally Posted by Airhoss (Post 1489641)
I already got awarded my DEN 787 captain bid... I guess the fence is down for me?

Good for you! Better run and get that training assignment with all the royal guaranteed protections. ;)

Birddog 09-24-2013 01:11 PM

Not a fence. Just lack of vacancies. They are supposedly hashing out this latest wrinkle in our lovely merger at WHQ. It just never stops. I'm trying to find some humor in it.

It ain't over until the fat United pilot is in his 737 captain seat.

You want to use your seniority? No Vac-eee, No Bid-eee..

Interesting to see what gets decided. The correct path or the grievance path.

GoCats67 09-24-2013 01:13 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489631)
Bumps are based off of TABs not activated pilots. So if a TAB has been assigned under the SFO MOU they can bump the crap out of SFO.

I don't know how many of the 400 are left untrained to bump. But you're getting setup for an expensive lesson.

I find it funny how S-UAL pilots always explain it away when they are possibly about to be hosed. Wouldn't you rather see the TPA, UPA, SFO MOU, and ISL enforced?

I guess I don't know how bumps work for legacy CAL, but for legacy UA, you can only bump to a position that your seniority can hold. Since nobody had started or completed training for a 737 SFO assignment at the time the ISL was implemented (even if they had a TAB assignment) there aren't any pilots that are currently holding a SFO 737 assignment! On the UA side that would mean that anybody who was being bumped (for whatever reason) would not be able to bump to SFO 737. I could definitely see that the pilots that got the SFO 737 assignments would be eligible for a bump, I just don't see how they could then bump to SFO 737, since there are no pilots junior to them assigned there(since there are none at all assigned to a SFO 737 base) . Obviously I am not an expert, but I don't see how anybody could get a bump to an assignment that doesn't exist!

So, I would expect there will be a lot of bumps as you are speculating, but I still don't see how that is going to limit the number of SFO 737 bids that come out.

SpecialTracking 09-24-2013 01:20 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489646)
Not a fence. Just lack of vacancies. They are supposedly hashing out this latest wrinkle in our lovely merger at WHQ. It just never stops. I'm trying to find some humor in it.

It ain't over until the fat United pilot is in his 737 captain seat.

You want to use your seniority? No Vac-eee, No Bid-eee..

Interesting to see what gets decided. The correct path or the grievance path.

I guess all those vacancies just happened to end with 14-02. Now with retirements in full swing the ladder for some mysterious reason has been raised. Fat UAL pilot? That, made me laugh BBQ boy.

Birddog 09-24-2013 01:22 PM

They're discussing this latest wrinkle in our lovely merger at WHQ. Vacancies won't end, they'll just slow way down if this plan wins. But time is money.

In a CCS memo the S-CAL pilots were told they could bump according to the TABs. Any CAL pilots want to chime in?

Hopefully the company will take the correct path not the grievous path.

SpecialTracking 09-24-2013 01:31 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489656)
Hopefully the company will take the correct path not the grievous path.

That is the quote of the year on this forum. Drinks to you!

jsled 09-24-2013 01:33 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489615)
Seniority is forever, sure. But it doesn't do you a damn bit of good when the bumps fill the place up for a year. Then the bumpee's are protected by the company shrinking the 767's through attrition and going fat on manning reducing vacancies. The S-UAL pilots may be in for a shock. We'll see soon. Hope I'm wrong.

First of all, a year ain't sheet. I could stand on my head that long. Secondly, let's not forget that there are 13- 757s leaving next qtr according to the latest Investor Update on United.com. "Shrinking through attrition" sure looks pretty in print, but in reality, there will be bumps. I got time.

Sled

dvhighdrive88 09-24-2013 02:19 PM

Well something is holding it up. A day late now. If I was a betting type my money would be on a CAL vs UAL rift over the nature of the bid. Could it be the bid was a whopper one or both of the sides couldn't swallow?

Skyflyin 09-24-2013 02:51 PM


Originally Posted by Birddog (Post 1489656)
They're discussing this latest wrinkle in our lovely merger at WHQ. Vacancies won't end, they'll just slow way down if this plan wins. But time is money.

In a CCS memo the S-CAL pilots were told they could bump according to the TABs. Any CAL pilots want to chime in?

Hopefully the company will take the correct path not the grievous path.

I think there will be vacancies, just on attrition alone, but whether the company decides to either fly the 757 fat with crews or displace them is the question. Bumping causes A LOT of training events and the training department is already full. Hopefully there will be movement on both sides with no bumping.

untied 09-24-2013 02:58 PM


Originally Posted by dvhighdrive88 (Post 1489689)
Well something is holding it up. A day late now. If I was a betting type my money would be on a CAL vs UAL rift over the nature of the bid. Could it be the bid was a whopper one or both of the sides couldn't swallow?

I think the problem is that the CAL guys think they found a way around the SLI decision.

They claim that they lose their bid, but then they immediately bump right back in to it.

Clearly, that does not satisfy the SLI decision which stated that untrained pilots were not entitled to those seats.

If you lose your bid, just enter a new selection when the new bid comes out. You can fly anything that your NEW seniority can hold. If the company doesn't "get" that....there will be INSTANT lawsuits and grievances filed.

jsled 09-24-2013 03:11 PM


Originally Posted by untied (Post 1489709)
I think the problem is that the CAL guys think they found a way around the SLI decision.

They claim that they lose their bid, but then they immediately bump right back in to it.

Clearly, that does not satisfy the SLI decision which stated that untrained pilots were not entitled to those seats.

If you lose your bid, just enter a new selection when the new bid comes out. You can fly anything that your NEW seniority can hold. If the company doesn't "get" that....there will be INSTANT lawsuits and grievances filed.


They already did it......



Date: September 6, 2013 Expires: September 16, 2013 To: Pilots | From: Crew Resources/WHQCM

Displacement Awards Per 737 MOU

Eligible Pilots Only
The following only affects pilots who are entitled to a displacement pursuant to the 737 MOU dated July 10, 2013. This will only impact pilots who are not in training, have not received a training assignment bid (TAB) award, or have not been pay protected for an assignment.
If you have received a CCS message, you are eligible for displacement rights under the MOU above.
A pilot with displacement rights is permitted to remain in his/her staffed position, or select another category to which their seniority can hold, which may include your prior award. For this interim process, no pilot will be affected by another pilot exercising their displacement rights. However, if future analysis determines an excess of pilot staffing exists, there is the potential for category/BES displacements under section 8 of the contract.
Pilots who do not wish to change their staffed position do not need to respond to this bulletin.
To facilitate this decision, a Junior Pilot Table (sample below) will indicate the junior- most pilot assuming the future movements as of the most recent TAB. Pilots holding displacements will be counted in their present operating positions.

A pilot deciding to exercise displacement rights and select a new category must email that election to [email protected] by 0800 CDT September 16th. A printable form with required information for pilot election is provided on the following page. Should a pilot submit more than one form, only the last submission will be considered. An immediate return email response will be generated to confirm receipt of the request.

Upon Processing, participating pilots will receive CCS notice of the revised award. The revised award will be referenced as 14_02D for future reference.

Birddog 09-24-2013 03:29 PM

Damn Jsled,

You're a resourceful little monkey. It didn't take you long to find that gem.

I know I tried to wind you up earlier, but they are trying this. The game isn't over---they haven't "done" it yet.

You said you can wait a year? That wait from A-320 FO to 737 CA is $60,000. Still don't mind waiting?

dvhighdrive88 09-24-2013 03:39 PM

So obviously some communication from mgmt or the union is too much to ask for. What was I thinking.

Probe 09-24-2013 03:46 PM

So you guys are saying it is all going smoothly?

Doing vacancies before displacements makes no sense to me. I was surprised to not see a big displacement bid right after ISL. I can't see NOT bumping 757 l-UAL pilots. A bump is much better than a bid, I doubt most 757 pilots would bid off if they are getting paid to not fly.

To the CAL pilots who think they will bump right back to the same position, bumps are not single bids. There will be multiple displacement bids, until manpower gets the numbers they want. What this means is perhaps a pilot can bump to the same position, but the next week when the next bump comes out, he gets bumped again, this time somewhere downhill.

Let the bumps begin.

SpecialTracking 09-24-2013 03:57 PM

I think this bears reading one more time. From the arbitrators...

"There simply is no fair and equitable basis for this Board to award what the CAL Committee proposes. Under the guise of protecting pilots from displacement from “then-current positions”, it would extend such protection to pilots who don’t actually have such positions at all. In short, if granted, it would interfere with the fair operation of the ISL forever by placing CAL pilots immovably in positions that their ISL seniority would not entitle them to hold."

...in other words, if you are not in training, you will not be afforded protections.

CALFO 09-24-2013 04:03 PM


Originally Posted by Probe (Post 1489742)
So you guys are saying it is all going smoothly?
acancies before displacements makes no sense to me. I was surprised to not see a big displacement bid right after ISL. I can't see NOT bumping 757 l-UAL pilots. A bump is much better than a bid, I doubt most 757 pilots would bid off if they are getting paid to not fly.

To the CAL pilots who think they will bump right back to the same position, bumps are not single bids. There will be multiple displacement bids, until manpower gets the numbers they want. What this means is perhaps a pilot can bump to the same position, but the next week when the next bump comes out, he gets bumped again, this time somewhere downhill.

Let the bumps begin.

Vacancies before displacement makes perfect sense in a healthy airline that is experiencing massive retirements. If 747 and 777 captains retire, it is logical that 76 capts will move up. Add to that the 76 cap's retiring (not to mention 747 and 767 fo's) and a great number of the reductions on the 756 fleet are satisfied prior to displacement bidding.

All the company has to do is to set the min low on the 756 and wait for the pilots to leave on their own. What displacements that do occur do not mean that pilots will be bumped out of their seat as another vacancy bid is almost guaranteed prior to 120 days after the displacement.

As for pilots not bidding out so they can get paid not to work, my guess is that extremely inefficient trips (14 days off for 80 hours) will probably solve that problem.

Skyflyin 09-24-2013 04:31 PM


Originally Posted by SpecialTracking (Post 1489751)
I think this bears reading one more time. From the arbitrators...

"There simply is no fair and equitable basis for this Board to award what the CAL Committee proposes. Under the guise of protecting pilots from displacement from “then-current positions”, it would extend such protection to pilots who don’t actually have such positions at all. In short, if granted, it would interfere with the fair operation of the ISL forever by placing CAL pilots immovably in positions that their ISL seniority would not entitle them to hold."

...in other words, if you are not in training, you will not be afforded protections.

You may like to repeat that ST, but what the CAL MC proposed was exactly what was awarded in the Delta/NWA merger and not very far from the UAL proposal (below).

The UAL Committee’s pilots in training proposed C&R (Number 1.3) is as
follows:
Pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed qualification training for a new position
(e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they are being or have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the Integrated
Seniority List.

I was surprised that the arbs did not define what "in the process of training" meant, just for the reason that the two sides seem to be arguing now.

Besides, I wasn't talking about the 14-02 guys, but the guys that would be bumped that are already in the position.

Probe 09-24-2013 04:31 PM

CALFO;
They are already flying inefficient trips. There won't be enough 80 hour months to go around. There simply won't be enough block hours.

Yes, some of the Captains will retire straight out of the 75 fleet. But most of the pilots will not. Bumping gives you a paid move, free PS commuter passes, and no training freeze. Few will bid off until they gut bumped. I wouldn't.

400 retirements a year is only 3% of our pilot group. This is nowhere near "massive". Just "normal". 3% a year for 33 years equals? All of us. This is simply a normal rate of retirement.


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