Privateer20

From the perspective of this ewr 777 fo(and the majority of my strawpolled colleagues)....117 blows. So, im interested to hear the impact..good or bad in other bases.

Why me no likey:
-our previously senior and desirable 3 day China trips are now 4 days. 117 requires you to "acclimate" therefor driving the layover to 48hrs. So, 12 time zones away from home, the Faa thinks you are all rested up and acclimated to China time... The result: 240 days off lost/month across the base. When returning home from these trips, it is now much harder to return to your normal rest pattern!

-we now fly LHR as a 4 day(instead of 3), 2 man, trip. Again, you "acclimate" to LHR time, therefor you are good to operate the return 8hr trip as a 2 man crew. About 60 days off lost across the base, plus 30 less pairings.

-trip trading: trade buffers due to 28 day limit.

Hopefully, your base has not been negatively affected....Steve

ERJ Jay

I do mostly "4" day EWR 756 UK trips now.

Completely agree that 117 blows.

On a three day - get there sleep, workout, eat, sleep, go back to work.

You're never there long enough to have any problems, when I get home I'm still on the same time zone.

"4" day - gets me all all screwed up. Never get a "good" night sleep the second night - usually 2-3 hours total no matter what I do.

Complete zombie coming back, as a two man crew (usually both of us agree that we're exhausted in the crew van to airport).

When I get home, I'm even more tired that I've ever been - half from the extra night throwing me out of whack, and half from the fact I only get 2-3 hours of "sleep" that second night.

Now I've been away in one place long enough to screw me up, but no there long enough to be "rested" either..

Complete fail IMHO.

APC225

That describes my experience but I'm on a 737. The redeyes used to always be at the end of a normal circadian rhythm trip and did not seem like a big deal. Now they're mostly at the end of the first day which wipes you out for the rest of the trip. Fly early day one, day rest, redeye late day one into day two, day rest, fly late day two, fly mid to late day three, same on day four. They're squeezing 5 duty periods into 4 days like we can turn sleep on and off like a switch. Late the second day is the worst. So in 24 hours there is an early show, then an off-cycle rest, then a redeye, then another off cycle rest. The last true in-cycle rest was 3 nights ago. Called in fatigued once, more coming. They're doing the same with the 3 days with 4 duty periods. On the upside I get to spend an extra 16 hours TAFB spending time with my fellow employees, equalling 24 days or more per year at work than before.

El10

For one the lost days at home has nothing to do with fatigue at work. The rules where changed to reduce fatigue not enhance your schedule.

Now the question of being more fatigued for your return leg is a real issue. Have you changed your rest approach for a four day verse what you always done on a three day? Have you called in fatigued for the return leg so that it is documented?

MasterOfPuppets

117 does nothing but allow the company to work you more. There is only on good thing and that is 8 hrs behind the door but our contract took care of that.

I have never been more exhausted in my life then being a domestic reserve in a short base everything they assigned me sounded illegal but wasn't. Get into SFO from a GDG 4 day to be called 30 mins after block in and given 2 day cross town in SJC. All in all that little journey was 6 days and 38 hours of flying. Never got re-aclimated to SFO until after the 2 day but was still legal........

Anyways atleast with the 3.5-1 rig we have now the inefficient intl trips are starting to pay.

Coach67

FAR 117 rest requirements are two things:

First and foremost they are a safety item that ensures proper rest.

Secondly they require more manpower which means more jobs. Not only more new hires but more Captain jobs for F/O's to upgrade and more wide body seats for narrow body pilots to upgrade.

Yes ... some safety rules suck but safety is better than the alterntive!

gettinbumped

Fully agreed here. I recently flew 39 hours in 8 days... Something that would NEVER have been legal under the old rules. Biggest fail though is allowing for 9 hours of flying per day instead of 8. I remember calling out ALPA for EXACTLY that issue... A 2 man return from Europe was now possible, costing safety AND jobs. The reply? It won't work, look at the departure time. I replied with the very difficult to understand concept that they could shift the departure time 30 min later and it's all legal. Sooooo shocking they actually made it happen! (Sarcasm intended)

socalflyboy

Same boat here....but what really blows is after the SECOND red eye and day rest( but don't you dare tell the hotel staff/ general public that it's" day rest") there are TWO legs back to base! One of these instances had a 3 hr airport appreciation break before last leg home....call in fatigued and your just killing your day off...

Privateer20

EL10. I realize why the rules changed, and i read the entire rules summary when it was first distributed 18+ months ago. Shocking to me, how few of my fellow pilots read it...but i get it.
The "science" said that it takes the average person 1 day for every 1 hr timezone crossed to "acclimate". Yet, with all the different "cooks" in the kitchen on these rules(including alpa), they agreed to a blanket 36 hr to acclimate. Am i less rested on the return leg because i now laid over for 48 vs 24hrs? Not necessarily, but i certainly dont feel more rested and definitely not "acclimated". Hence my frustration, the extra day seems to do none of us any good, even the company. Have i called in "fatigued" for the return leg?? Uh, no....im just ready for first break

The feds don't care about my lost days off, roger that. But im spending many more days out of the month struggling to acclimate and then reacclimate to home. In my view, this does not make for a healthy pilot.

Im just living the new rules and not seeing how they make me safer. In fact, over time with all this "reacclimating" in and out of your body clock, they are cutting yrs off all the fishing i want to do when i retire!

Privateer20

Coach, not finding anyone in my bes who feels the rule helps "ensure proper rest"

As far as more pilots: perhaps more reserves are necessary due to fatigue and sick calls related to the rule. But just because my trip is a 4 day vs a 3 day does not drive the need for more lineholders in the pbs era. Also, some trips are now being operated as 2 man vs 3 man...less pilots.