FTFF

I was a regional guy flying commutable 4 on 3 off trips before coming here. Night flying sucks whatever way you look at it, but it can be tolerable. Since "night flying" is a blanket term, here is what it actually is, at least at Mother Brown.

Night sort is a big percentage of our domestic flying. You probably call them highspeeds, standups, or momma trips at the regionals... Show up for a van pickup at the hotel around 8pm, fly a quick leg to SDF, sleep for a couple of hours (4 is over exaggerating reality), fly back to outstation (gateway in Brownspeak), get to the hotel around 6am and you are done until 8pm. Few, if any, get 8 hrs of sleep straight at the hotel. Seems most get 4-6 then take another nap before showtime. Those are the clean trips. Often you'll find multiple legs on one end, both, or some E-W or W-E long legs just to make the night brutal. And if you are late inbound your break in sdf can vanish at the blink of an eye nor does UPS bother to take care of you and let you sleep longer when they know your outbound flight is delayed. Typical schedule is week on week off with a commercial DH on at least one side. Damage: disruption of normal sleep pattern, reduction in quality sleep hours, circadian disruption.

AM turns: Show up in SDF around 2-3am, fly to outstation, sleep and hour (or two if you are really lucky; some trips have no sleep opportunity) then head back to SDF. Done by 11am. Rinse and repeat for next 3 nights. Lines of turns are typically 3/4 weeks of 4 on 3 off. To emphasize, you normally get a week off out of a 4 week pay period. No perdiem is paid on these. Sounds good? Ok, a 3 am show time requires you to be at employee parking lot by 2:40 at the latest so you are probably waking up at or before 2am (this is Western Europe bankers hours). Can you be in bed asleep before 1800 to get your 8 hrs...? Sounds easy, reality is another thing. Can't tell you how many times I lay in bed from 530pm to 9 or 10 pm tossing and turning getting more and more ****ed off because all I wanted to do was feel good at 2am and that was out of the question at no fault of my own. But honestly, out of all the night stuff we fly I find these to be the most manageable. Other guys detest them. Damage: reduction of quality sleep hours, possible circadian disruption.

True night flying. All sorts of stuff and mostly on the domestic fleets. It can be multiple flights into and out of the sort with no sleep opportunities, red eyes, a link of flights around the country, etc.. The only positive is that this type of flying isn't common (all I've done is 1 red eye) so at worst it will be sporadic. Damage: circadian disruption, circadian flip-flop, reduction of quality sleep, reduction of total sleep. This $hit will kill you. Biggest problem is that these trips are interspersed with other pairings so there's no consistency.

International. You start going E or W. SDF is usually a 2-3am show. You can do around the worlds, loops around oceans, intl hub turns, out and backs, scatter patterns, you name it. Trip times can be anywhere from 4 days to 14. The biggest problem is the 24 hour layovers associated with E-W long haul flights. You need to get 2 x 8hr sleep opportunities in a 24 hour period when your circadian rhythm wants to do it in 36. You'll find that despite your best efforts you will show up for a long flight right at the time your body is demanding a long sleep. Needless to say, rest breaks are invaluable. Otherwise it's your standard intl problems which are more circadian based vs length and quality in domestic night flying. The flying is generally easier too. Guys doing certain intl hub turns can stay on US time zones (but this goes senior). Damage: Circadian disruptions and flip flops, reduction in quality sleep.

The counter to all of this is the time off we get and the lower block hours we fly. We talk about these as being benefits but they are actually necessities. Mixed fleets like the Z and MD offer variety of pairings that you can use to recover from your exposure to the bad stuff despite the convenience the night stuff usually brings to you. Regardless, you'll notice when you get a few weeks off in a row with normal sleep just how chronically tired you are during your normal working life despite how good you are at sleep management. I'm starting to dread going to work because no matter what I do at some point during my trip I'm going to decimate my body clock and sleep cycle routine. Doing this once in a blue moon is one thing. Done chronically it will start to kill you.

As for all the questions they were drilling you on: this job is mainly about fatigue management. Your main thoughts are how to recover and be rested for the next assignment. The guys that don't are the ones who look 20 years older than they are. Like boiler said, you have to make a lifestyle change to fly night if you want to survive. It's all about survival.

FTFF

Another data point to look at if you want to investigate the QOL here is UPS attrition. Besides a couple going back to previous corporate gigs during training, 1 to FedEx before he even got to SIM, nobody really leaves. We got almost every furloughee back, a bunch of guys who had AA seniority numbers, as I understand from internal formum postings, is that zero took the recall. Every other newhire I've ever talked to is beyond stoked to be here and I get the furrowed brow if I even mention jumping ship. Hey, the money is good, benefits fantastic, time off probably amongst industry leaders, pilot group is tight knit, you can live anywhere (in the world) especially with a little seniority.... Downsides are the night flying and UPS corporate culture. Rather than fly a week in our system, spend a weekend at one of your UPS buds house. Talk, read the contract, let him show some threads on our internal forums, study some bid packages, talk more. If you know what you are getting into this job is tolerable. Worst case, you'll find yourself a couple years into UPS too tired to sleep on an Emirates first class seat and instead of hitting the lounge you'll check your retirement accounts then take a peep at what's going on in the APC forums. A couple of posts later you'll be on descent into some intl city with a glass of Dom Perignon in hand, fresh from a shower, wrapping up a final post with a night on the town with old friends ahead of you. Not all bad.

BoilerUP

Re: morning turns

I find doing turns Tues-Thurs all 4 weeks of a pay period less exhausting than doing Tues-Fri turns three weeks, with a full week off. That fourth turn lays on the hate exponentially (for me).

I go to bed at 7pm and generally get 5.5-7 hours of sleep prior to the alarm going off. The cumulative deficit (for me) is less than doing a week of hub turns. Typically home by noon and have time to work out, do home projects, run errands, etc. before the kids get home.

When I do my last turn of the week, I stay up until maybe 9pm and nurse a glass of Woodford prior to crashing out for 9hr+ and then the following day I feel fine. Sliding sleep 4-5 hours forward and back has been more manageable for me than flipping to pure nights.

With a bit of seniority, most fleets have enough diversity of flying for people to find the niche that works for them and this is reflected (at least post-OCV) in pilots bidding the same type of flying bid after bid.

FTFF

I like AM turns too. The perdiem pay check hit and crash pad needed since I'm a commuter rule then out for me. Surprised they trickle down to the bottom end.

767pilot

Keep in mind that all international flying, passengers or freight, is going to involve a large amount of back of the clock night flying. The 767 European trips are great on your body clock until that last redeye home. No way around that.

BNUT

I have heard that fatigue management is one of the interview question topics. It seems rather difficult to answer that question without actually having done these type of schedules. What kind of response are they looking for?

767pilot

I'm not sure that they want to be bs'd with stories about how great night flying is with nobody on the frequencies and the splendors of flying direct. Each of us develops our own fatigue strategies. Read up on the industry boiler plate stuff (fmrs) and be able to spit that back at them. Open for debate but the company prides themselves on the steps that they have taken to protect their crews with scientific research (who needs 117 anyway? Our scientists know more than their scientists). Like any other question, be sincere and honest.

WhenPigsFLy

The pax industry has bounced back. If there is no future set backs, I think their job is way better in regards to fatigue. I'm speaking flying domestic only and have seniority to stay away from red eyes. Having done both, I like seeing the world and having time off both on layovers and off time at UPS but you pay the price. I know 3-5 legs a day make you tired as a pax guy. Their is a different level of fatigue at UPS/FedEx or Pax international. If you look at some of the Pax international its late departures to 18-22 hour layover the all nighter back with some variation. If you want to sleep, go pax, bid domestic and bid schedules not days off. In your choice of a job to take don't bid the industry/carrier you see doing the "best now", it will change. Get on a company stay and build seniority, the grass is greener on some things at each carrier and industry but not perfect anywhere. If I was young I would go to DAL or UAL live in domicile, bid res and play system for open time or stay at home a lot (no open time) and get the wife in the job market.

vroll1800

As you can see from the responses here (FTFF post#11 , etc.) there is no single "correct" answer. What interviewers are looking for is that you have a clue (a major portion of your life at Brown will very likely involve back side of the clock ops), and a plan for dealing with it.

trackpilot

FTFF wow great post! It really helps put things in perspective. Thank you!