trackpilot

I know there are sleep rooms in SDF. But what do you do at the other airports on your turns? Or are you not there very long?

FTFF

With our flying, next day air anyway, it's everything coming into the sort (0000-0200), then everything going out at 0230-0500, really no exceptions. All the sorts have sleep rooms and quiet recliner rooms. SDF, RFD, PHL, DFW, ONT, etc. Second day air stuff will see ground stops at different gateways. Usually there is at least a small quite room with some recliners: DEN, MSP, BDL etc.

Id strongly advise against flying a week in our system or mimicking it on your days off. The first week or two of doing it are a shock to you body. Once you get in a routine and figure out what works and what doesn't you'll find it to be quite manageable. You can't replicate that in a week. You're a pilot. You've flown late or had a few nasty early show times before so you already know what it's like.

FTFF

My 2 cents for choosing UPS: you're well into your 40's, live in one of our domiciles or with an easy commute to one, absolutely hate the passenger side of this industry, you're from the regional lost generation and aren't getting other quality offers, or are sitting on more than one rejection from other majors. FedEx and UPS have their own volatility and I wouldnt say they are any safer in general than the pax guys. We will be a lot more affected by impending trade wars than the pax guys will for example. Our pensions sounds tasty and secure but if you watched DALPAs C2015 presentation on retirement and assuming market stability over the long run you could be better off there financially if you follow their retirement recommendations. My buds at the legacies who have upgraded already, combined with PS, will blow my $171/ hr out of the water, now and for the rest of our careers. And the real reasons guys don't leave UPS is the starting over factor and the fact the legacies want moldable vs overexperienced. Simply put, there are better deals out there than UPS for most people but if you end up here it is still gunna be a great ride. YMMV

CargoDriver

Since MIA will be getting new hires, let me give you 3 examples of turns that new hires or jr people are flying without a sleep facility.

MIA-BOG-MIA. Show at 10 pm. 1130 pm departure. 3.5 down. 1.5 on the ground. 3.5 back. There is no sleep facility or time for a nap except maybe a quick one while loading or unloading is going on. So basically, you are up all night.

MIA-GUA-MIA. Guatemala is a fairly easy night turn. No sleep facility that anyone uses on a regular basis. The 767 fully reclined is better than they have to offer. IMHO This also shows around 10 pm, with an 11pm departure. 2.5 down. 2 on the ground. 2.5 back.

MIA-Panama-Nicaragua-MIA. Average show is 8-10 pm. Leg one is 2,8 and sit for 1.3, Leg 2 is 1.5 and sit for an hour. Leg 3 back to MIA is about 2.5. Another all nighter with no sleep facility.

Built into these lines are SDF turns, so not every night is the same. Other constraints keep you from flying back to back BOG turns.

MIA normally has 10 of these lines. If you are a new hire and are awarded MIA, then expect to do this type of flying.

IMO, the IPA has negotiated good hourly rates and a retirement plan because back side of the clock and night turns will have you quickly realizing that you are worth this much and more.

my .02 worth.

CargoDriver

Couple of questions: Your example of mid 40's and hired here(ups) would assume that you would make Captain in the 20 year career and retire with an A plan of 20 years correct? According to conservative planning, my CFP, and other info that I read, I would need an annuity of over 2 million, drawing 4% annually to equal my A plan payout for 20 years of service. I still have the 401K and B fund. Are you saying that a mid 40 year old hired at Delta is projected to have 2 million invested with after tax dollars when he retires?

If yes to that question, then they will definitely need more $$ and PS to put that kinda money away, wouldn't you agree?

Either way, a 30 year career choice between Cargo and legacy would be a tough decision for me if I had a do-over!!

Ray Kinsella

That's funny. I can think of 200,000 reasons for a second year FO and what you described aren't included.

WhenPigsFLy

There's that too

Ray Kinsella

Here's my perspective. I don't claim its better or worse than others, it's just mine. Having been at a legacy, furloughed and hired at UPS I think the quality of life and pay here is far superior. The one pay scale is huge. We all make widebody pay while just a small percentage of legacy pilots truly make the big bucks. The vacation/OCV is industry leading. Senior guys can either work 9.5 months a year or cash in 175 hours of vacation. I think most are taking the time off. New hires get 2 weeks of vacation until 5 years of service. They can turn that 2 weeks into a month off, two months of only working a week, or cash it in for 70 hours of pay.

Our regular time off is industry leading as well.

There are drawbacks. Hub turn flying at night can suck. Two week long around the world isn't for everyone. The variety enables most to find their niche though. Unless you happened to have been at the bottom in 2007. Those guys got a 7 year crap sandwich.

All in all I don't think it's even a debate. I'm glad I stayed.

Commando

It's 140,000 reasons. After Taxes, LTD, Mutual Aid, Union Dues, etc.

Also, one cannot cash in there Vacation for 175 hours until they retire. The way you wrote it, it sounds like one can do that each year.

Commando

"All in all I don't think it's even a debate. I'm glad I stayed."

If I was younger, it's a no brainer. Legacy hands down. Night Flying over 30 years sucks. Period. It is what it is.

Non-rev passes, Terminal perks; Stores, Restaurants, First Class meals served on china vs. our catering, etc.

With there pay and PS what it is now, added with the upgrades of 5 years, it is not a question.

If I was 30 years old, I would be going to a legacy. A-plan or not.