FDX 757 Capt or 777 FO
11-22-2014, 03:34 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
[QUOTE= Personally, I like the way American Airlines handled that issue. If someone junior to you checked out as a Captain, or you were gone.[/QUOTE]
JetJok, not entirely true.
Formerly at American, the 1 year Clock was correct, but there also had to be a Bid to allow you to Bid Captain at the end of that year.
Furthermore, it was base specific. In other words, if you were a Senior FO in the JR base of NYC and the 1 year clock hit, you could Bid to ORD or LAX and still be an FO if that was your Cup of Tea.
Also if you elected to stay in the same base at the 1 year clock, once you upgraded to Captain, you could down bid and remain a Senior FO.
I know it has been a while since your flying actively. The FDX schedules are so Brutal when you are Junior, much more so than 6-10 years ago. QOL trumps $$ for most of us.
Personally, I prefer having a Senior very experienced FO in my Cockpit and I haven't had an issue.
Actually what often happens is the Very Senior FO usually ends up flying with a very very Junior and very inexperienced Captain
on a 10 day international trip and says, well I guess its finally time to upgrade.
Rhetorical? ..... Using your analogy, Do you also think a very Senior NB Captain (or NB FO) should be forced to upgrade to WB Captain (or FO) when someone JR to them checks out as WB Captain (or FO)?
JetJok, not entirely true.
Formerly at American, the 1 year Clock was correct, but there also had to be a Bid to allow you to Bid Captain at the end of that year.
Furthermore, it was base specific. In other words, if you were a Senior FO in the JR base of NYC and the 1 year clock hit, you could Bid to ORD or LAX and still be an FO if that was your Cup of Tea.
Also if you elected to stay in the same base at the 1 year clock, once you upgraded to Captain, you could down bid and remain a Senior FO.
I know it has been a while since your flying actively. The FDX schedules are so Brutal when you are Junior, much more so than 6-10 years ago. QOL trumps $$ for most of us.
Personally, I prefer having a Senior very experienced FO in my Cockpit and I haven't had an issue.
Actually what often happens is the Very Senior FO usually ends up flying with a very very Junior and very inexperienced Captain
on a 10 day international trip and says, well I guess its finally time to upgrade.
Rhetorical? ..... Using your analogy, Do you also think a very Senior NB Captain (or NB FO) should be forced to upgrade to WB Captain (or FO) when someone JR to them checks out as WB Captain (or FO)?
11-22-2014, 04:25 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Redeye,
There are definitely a number of positives about flying with the super senior F.O's, especially when you're either new in the jet, or domicile, or you're trip involves places you've not been to before, but they have. There are plenty of others as well, most of which I can't think of right now. However, what I found was that the longer a guy sat in a seat, and I mean any seat, be it Capt, F/O or S/O, the staler they became. I really don't know why, but I noticed that on many occasions. Again, not just with First Officers.
On one of my first landings, as a new (post IOE) Captain, still in consolidation, in the MD-11, landing in Oakland, with a F/O with almost 15 years in the right seat, I landed at the far end of the touchdown zone. On rollout, tower asked if we could make the high speed. The F/O responded "Sure", to which I responded by easing off the brakes and rolling past the high speed to the end turn off. On taxi back, I asked him what the high speed turnoff speed was, to which he replied "40 Knots." I asked him where that information was and he had no idea, but said that that's what "everybody uses." Plenty of stories like that.
To answer your question: "Rhetorical? ..... Using your analogy, Do you also think a very Senior NB Captain (or NB FO) should be forced to upgrade to WB Captain (or FO) when someone JR to them checks out as WB Captain (or FO)?" No. I think once a guy makes Captain, he or she has the right to stay there and reap the benefits of their hard work, regardless of which aircraft they are in. And it's at this point in time when complacency starts to set in. Anyway, that's what I believe.
There are definitely a number of positives about flying with the super senior F.O's, especially when you're either new in the jet, or domicile, or you're trip involves places you've not been to before, but they have. There are plenty of others as well, most of which I can't think of right now. However, what I found was that the longer a guy sat in a seat, and I mean any seat, be it Capt, F/O or S/O, the staler they became. I really don't know why, but I noticed that on many occasions. Again, not just with First Officers.
On one of my first landings, as a new (post IOE) Captain, still in consolidation, in the MD-11, landing in Oakland, with a F/O with almost 15 years in the right seat, I landed at the far end of the touchdown zone. On rollout, tower asked if we could make the high speed. The F/O responded "Sure", to which I responded by easing off the brakes and rolling past the high speed to the end turn off. On taxi back, I asked him what the high speed turnoff speed was, to which he replied "40 Knots." I asked him where that information was and he had no idea, but said that that's what "everybody uses." Plenty of stories like that.
To answer your question: "Rhetorical? ..... Using your analogy, Do you also think a very Senior NB Captain (or NB FO) should be forced to upgrade to WB Captain (or FO) when someone JR to them checks out as WB Captain (or FO)?" No. I think once a guy makes Captain, he or she has the right to stay there and reap the benefits of their hard work, regardless of which aircraft they are in. And it's at this point in time when complacency starts to set in. Anyway, that's what I believe.
11-22-2014, 06:13 PM
#54
"blue collar thug"!
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: A proponent of...
Posts: 1,614
Originally Posted by MX727
20 percentile in the Bus right seat would be 90th in the left seat. Doesn't seem unreasonable that some 15-18 year FOs are waiting to upgrade.
11-22-2014, 07:15 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 204
Originally Posted by Jetjok
Redeye,
There are definitely a number of positives about flying with the super senior F.O's, especially when you're either new in the jet, or domicile, or you're trip involves places you've not been to before, but they have. There are plenty of others as well, most of which I can't think of right now. However, what I found was that the longer a guy sat in a seat, and I mean any seat, be it Capt, F/O or S/O, the staler they became. I really don't know why, but I noticed that on many occasions. Again, not just with First Officers.
On one of my first landings, as a new (post IOE) Captain, still in consolidation, in the MD-11, landing in Oakland, with a F/O with almost 15 years in the right seat, I landed at the far end of the touchdown zone. On rollout, tower asked if we could make the high speed. The F/O responded "Sure", to which I responded by easing off the brakes and rolling past the high speed to the end turn off. On taxi back, I asked him what the high speed turnoff speed was, to which he replied "40 Knots." I asked him where that information was and he had no idea, but said that that's what "everybody uses." Plenty of stories like that.
There are definitely a number of positives about flying with the super senior F.O's, especially when you're either new in the jet, or domicile, or you're trip involves places you've not been to before, but they have. There are plenty of others as well, most of which I can't think of right now. However, what I found was that the longer a guy sat in a seat, and I mean any seat, be it Capt, F/O or S/O, the staler they became. I really don't know why, but I noticed that on many occasions. Again, not just with First Officers.
On one of my first landings, as a new (post IOE) Captain, still in consolidation, in the MD-11, landing in Oakland, with a F/O with almost 15 years in the right seat, I landed at the far end of the touchdown zone. On rollout, tower asked if we could make the high speed. The F/O responded "Sure", to which I responded by easing off the brakes and rolling past the high speed to the end turn off. On taxi back, I asked him what the high speed turnoff speed was, to which he replied "40 Knots." I asked him where that information was and he had no idea, but said that that's what "everybody uses." Plenty of stories like that.
However to the OP's original question, I would say if you live in domicile (MEM), upgrade to the 757 Captain. If you're a commuter, 777 right seat. It's just the balance and control of QOL vs pay.
Being the head Ah-hole is a huge perk. You don't have to worry what crazy eccentricity the Captain has today - it's all you. But, considering how miserable our lines are these days, being senior in seat is a huge QOL factor which may outweigh being "Captain My Captain".
11-23-2014, 04:38 AM
#57
Avoiding Memphis
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Intl Feeder Jet
Posts: 504
Originally Posted by Jetjok
On one of my first landings, as a new (post IOE) Captain, still in consolidation, in the MD-11, landing in Oakland, with a F/O with almost 15 years in the right seat, I landed at the far end of the touchdown zone. On rollout, tower asked if we could make the high speed. The F/O responded "Sure", to which I responded by easing off the brakes and rolling past the high speed to the end turn off. On taxi back, I asked him what the high speed turnoff speed was, to which he replied "40 Knots." I asked him where that information was and he had no idea, but said that that's what "everybody uses." Plenty of stories like that.
Thereby invalidating what your FO said to OAK tower, and maybe making someone behind you go around as you dawlded on the runway while deciding how to question the obvious lack of ops specs by your FO?
Here's a pro tip: if someone says something on the radio, keep it inside the airplane. Make the turnoff, burn up the brakes, and give the FO a dressing down in the chocks. Do NOT make it the tower's or ground's or whoever's problem.
Or, if you are one of THOSE guys, just keep being a tool, upgrade early, fly A reserve with different guys every day and don't worry about it.
11-23-2014, 04:51 AM
#58
Avoiding Memphis
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: Intl Feeder Jet
Posts: 504
And for content, I agree with LightAttack.
If you can live with being a junior dude on A reserve, then upgrade.
Otherwise, it's all about the lifestyle, dude.
Unless you are like one I guy know. He was happy in the right seat of a widebody for years. But he went on one trip where the Captain finally drove him over the cliff. He came back and said "That is IT!! I am DONE flying with *******s!" Boom, upgrade bid.
Find your *******, and upgrade after you fly with him...
If you can live with being a junior dude on A reserve, then upgrade.
Otherwise, it's all about the lifestyle, dude.
Unless you are like one I guy know. He was happy in the right seat of a widebody for years. But he went on one trip where the Captain finally drove him over the cliff. He came back and said "That is IT!! I am DONE flying with *******s!" Boom, upgrade bid.
Find your *******, and upgrade after you fly with him...
11-23-2014, 05:14 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
I think people should go to whatever works best for their situation. Junior schedules really stink, and you can either spend your life on the computer attempting to fix them (I do), or suffer through them. I am usually happy to fly with a senior FO, because it means I'm on a good trip. While there are some guys in any seat that really should retire, as they don't seem to care much anymore, movement just isn't quick enough that many can have a decent QOL by moving.
American does not have the best system, at all. While people can get around it by bidding to other bases, it generates too much undesired training and seat changes. I remember when a junior guy upgraded and forced everyone below him from the engineers seat to the F-100 for a couple of months. Then they were all displaced back down to DC-10, shortly after displaced to the 727, displaced to a couple of different bases, then furloughed. Since airlines don't always have the seniority list working in an upward trajectory, with airplanes bought and sold, people alternately hired and furloughed, they really can't project seat progression in a linear fashion. I can see maybe forcing someone to upgrade after five years, but not one. Waste of money and time.
American does not have the best system, at all. While people can get around it by bidding to other bases, it generates too much undesired training and seat changes. I remember when a junior guy upgraded and forced everyone below him from the engineers seat to the F-100 for a couple of months. Then they were all displaced back down to DC-10, shortly after displaced to the 727, displaced to a couple of different bases, then furloughed. Since airlines don't always have the seniority list working in an upward trajectory, with airplanes bought and sold, people alternately hired and furloughed, they really can't project seat progression in a linear fashion. I can see maybe forcing someone to upgrade after five years, but not one. Waste of money and time.
11-23-2014, 09:39 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
Originally Posted by pilot141
So, plenty of stories where an experienced FO had seen this done before, but you decided to ease up on the brakes and then give an ops limit test on taxi back?
Thereby invalidating what your FO said to OAK tower, and maybe making someone behind you go around as you dawlded on the runway while deciding how to question the obvious lack of ops specs by your FO?
Here's a pro tip: if someone says something on the radio, keep it inside the airplane. Make the turnoff, burn up the brakes, and give the FO a dressing down in the chocks. Do NOT make it the tower's or ground's or whoever's problem.
Or, if you are one of THOSE guys, just keep being a tool, upgrade early, fly A reserve with different guys every day and don't worry about it.
Thereby invalidating what your FO said to OAK tower, and maybe making someone behind you go around as you dawlded on the runway while deciding how to question the obvious lack of ops specs by your FO?
Here's a pro tip: if someone says something on the radio, keep it inside the airplane. Make the turnoff, burn up the brakes, and give the FO a dressing down in the chocks. Do NOT make it the tower's or ground's or whoever's problem.
Or, if you are one of THOSE guys, just keep being a tool, upgrade early, fly A reserve with different guys every day and don't worry about it.
) a little long, and we were heavy. What a good "experienced" F/O, after considering the Captains earlier request to keep him out of trouble, probably would have said, had he not asked the Captain, would have been: "Sorry Twr, we need the full length."B. If you think your "pro tip" is pro material, I suggest that you have a loftier opinion of yourself than reality shows. You suggest "Make the turnoff, burn up the brakes, and give the FO a dressing down in the chocks. Do NOT make it the tower's or ground's or whoever's problem." I suggest that with about 15 or 20 total hours in the jet, I wasn't ready to "make the turnoff, burn up the brakes", perhaps roll the tires off the rims, etc, etc. After 1500 hours in the jet, I'd still not opt for your option, considering all the damage that could be done, just because I wanted to "keep it in the jet." Of course, you weren't there, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Had I stood on the brakes when the F/O said we could make the turnoff, we probably would have been doing about 60 or 70 knots when we passed the high speed.
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