TANSTAAFL

I'm sure if he came with well written logical resolutions he would be. He is still an ALPA member in good standing and a DAL pilot.

tsquare

Yeah, but it would be like a check ride. ANYBODY can fail if you look hard enough. I'm sure the scrutiny he would be under would dwarf an electron microscope.

satchip

My rep told me at the national meeting when they elected Moak, they also voted to cut his and other top guys' pay. Is this how they did it?

Fly4hire

He is a C20 pilot. My experience is the Reps don't play those sort of games and represent everyone fairly regardless of personal opinion. Didn't know the union could "bust" you - I thought that was only the Co. and FAA

Fly4hire

According to my Capt Rep that is a true statement. Don't know what the reduction amounts to in dollars, although it can't be too hard to figure out.

Karnak

No there wasn't. There was NO flex up provision in the contract extension deal that gave NWA pilots the 10% raise. The deal you refer to came several months later, when NWA approached the pilots for more military charters to SW Asia. That was followed a year later with the "Freighter LOA". Both of those had staffing implications. Neither was part of the pay raise deal.

Separate issues. Separate times.

Both the company and the union were making decisions based on what was happening at the time. After 9/11, Jeff Carlson announced 850 furloughs. Then he announced only 600. A year later it was increased. A year after that the numbers changed monthly as the company reacted to decisions made at other airlines that were filing bankruptcy and making irrational marketing moves.

Compare it to NWA in the 70's, when there were annual furloughs, pilots who spent 9 years sideways on the 727, and at least 4 pilot strikes. If you've worked in this industry more than 5 years, you know plans changes...a lot.

The NWA pilots ratified only one contract in the last decade. The JCBA in 2008. The "contract" you refer to was one of 3 other interim deals that were signed. One, the 10% pay raise, passed by 87%.

Yes they did. As tough as being furloughed 5 times in 7 years? Some NWA pilots experienced that, yet still supported ALPA. They stuck together and struck again for a better contract.

Would Caplinger have struck after multiple furloughs? We don't know. He was hired more than a year after the NWA strike.

Then why the statements on the DPA site regarding joining CAPA, and lobbying for the profession? If the "core" is to focus on only Delta pilots...why bother with CAPA, or anything related to the profession?

What does CAPA do for Delta pilots? Why worry about attacks on the profession that don't target Delta pilots specifically?

But Carl says ALPA has never been successful! Are you suggesting ALPA helped members in 1992 at NWA, then in 2002 and beyond at both NWA and DAL with the COBRA program?

So I've learned.

TANSTAAFL

The May 2005 Pilot Working Agreement was certainly a contract. A little confused by how you define the the JCBA as a contract but the aforementioned isn't?

jetnwa

Tans/Karnak,

I am going by what we called TA1. I think that was the terminology then? Anyways, this is the time line reference I used for furloughs/ recalls/furloughs.


Karnak,

The furlough numbers announced were changed ie they furloughed less. The company furloughed in stages. I was in the top of the first group furloughed about halfway in the total pack. The company later recalled pilots and they were back on the property. I think the recalled pilots were back on the property for 6 or 7 months.

I have no malice to our union as they were fighting a very nefarious management team. I would not put it past management to treat the recalled/furloughed guys as nothing more than, well, "seasonal migrant workers" to be cut loose at a later date. I have NO DOUBTS if the company were given any sort of contract relief/change, they would have no hesitation crunching the numbers, making the transaction "zero sum" and just re-furlough from there making the decision easier.

I was one of the guys that was out for 5 years. When we got furloughed, the company kept our furlough pay. There were various grievances filed depending on the timing of the furlough groups. My group lost our grievance in arbitration. I know there is still a very serious "angst" over that issue. The other group of furloughees may have got a partial settlement several years later.

IRT ALPA/COBRA, I support ALPA and the COBRA coverage program was huge for us but it has to be voted for by the individual union group. It is not standard as it is an assessment to the active members. Any other union can do the same as well. Again, having that medical protection coverage paid while on the street is HUGE. I am not minimizing the fact the union stepped up to the plate. I will have no hesitation writing my check to help if, Heaven forbid, it happens again. Let's hope it doesn't.

IRT being furloughed multiple times, I was furloughed 3 times within 2 years during my career with the last 2 with 1 day's notice so what's your point? Yeah, it sucks anytime it happens. If you want to pass judgement on how tough his furlough was compared to others in the past, what is your furlough "sea service counter" sitting at these days? I don't compare my furloughs to others because they may have had it a lot tougher than me esp if they had to take crummy, non-flying jobs to make ends meet. I was lucky to fly for the most part so I don't compare mine to others.

With that being said, there are other issues at hand today that I can't equate if it happened in the past and it may affect people differently. Today, most places will require a furloughee to submit a letter of resignation to their former carrier before being hired. NWA and DAL would process any letter of resignation they collected. This is a VERY important point for later new hires to understand. Any good job you got that didn't require this and then quit, would be harder to get back later. You have to compete for jobs against pilots whose former airlines wouldn't process a letter of resignation. It can be a very tough, brutal environment. Being furloughed multiple times is a huge price to pay. Sometimes it is better to sit it out, defer a recall, and wait until things are better for the industry.

Do I believe all this may be the core issue with DPA? I have no idea. I know there are a lot of issues about funding of our dues versus what we get back to us, Scope (or lack of communication about it) is another. Just the fact DAL pilot will only be concerned for DAL issues is one.

Do I believe he would have struck after being furloughed twice? Again, I can't speak for him only me. After dealing with the carnage, having the company keep my severance pay needed to feed my family, then throwing me to the street, well I have my own Strike/Lock Out/Furlough fund now. I have worked very hard and sacrificed to have no mortgage, no debt, and almost 3 years of savings to pay expenses just sitting in the bank. Do you think I am screwing around after dealing with those Jokers? People may have other plans and that is their business. If the company management changes hands and they want to inflict abuse, as in the past, than I will have a very high pain threshold. They won't starve me into submission nor will I be intimidated by them in any way.

Now to the argument of ALPA vs DPA. With all this being said and all the chest thumping about getting huge pay restoration (I am all for it), please show me where ALPA, DPA or any other venue will get us a huge payday? Even assuming RA is running the show, and they don't bring in a Hammer to lay down the law to the pilots, the company has a JCBA, SLI, and a merged company in place. So why does management really have to negotiate with us since they work for the shareholders? We have no idea who will be in the White House where I even doubt a Blue President would allow us to walk. Again, anyone?

I am not being a defeatist but where's the real "leverage/Big Stick" to force a change if ALPA, DPA or anyone else is representing us? "You guys want major pay restoration...so what? What will you give us in return?"

Maybe their negotiating position will be the paraphrased statement one of our wonderful CEOs openly told our employees, "Let me be very direct, any employee is free to leave any time they would like..." (Translation to the masses): "There's the door Pal!" Again, I am not saying to swith unions just being the Devil's advocate on these points. Where is the "leverage"?

Good luck to the pilot group and hope we never have to endure such past issues again. My apologies for the long post. I yield the floor...

tsquare

There is no leverage. That is a myth perpetrated to keep the national bureaucracy in place and well fed.

tsquare

I am hoping I missed something in translation here, because you certainly seemed to miss my metaphor.

I am saying that if Caplinger shows up to dalpa with even a well thought out logical argument about anything.. he will be dismissed because he tried to throw Yertel out of the pond. Human nature.. and political aspirations of those in power says that is true. Sorry, but all those guys there.. no matter how well meaning on some level.. have political aspirations... and he was a threat to their fiefdom.

Oh, and what's a C20?