embraerjetpilot

May the frontier pilots get everything that they deserve and more....

zoooropa

ALPA? Again?

FAPA has done an absolutely unbelievable job in the grand scheme of things. (Disclaimer I have been involved in one way, shape or form for the past decade so I am biased as hell but the proof is in the pudding. Prove me wrong)

Prior to BK FAPA negotiated the second CBA on property. Eight years later it leaves A LOT to be desired but at the time it was a huge improvement over the first CBA, especially when you consider the economic environment that existed at F9.

During BK FAPA managed to protect every letter of the contract (work rules) while giving up pay and some benefits all of which were/will be contractually reinstated prior to any new CBA negotiations. I do not know of any bargaining unit that succeeded in mitigating the damage to such an extent during CH 11.

After BK they were raided by the IBT yet remained alive on life support while fighting multiple phases of litigation via Eschien, the District Court of Colorado and the District Court of Wisconsin. The individuals humping ALPA's pant leg today are the same folks that were demanding that FAPA shut down and distribute the FAPA bank account to the pilots. That was an incredibly short sighted and misguided mission at the time and the same folks continue to suffer from the same maladies today. There were some individual battles lost (monthly bidding by some via the IMSL, later reversed) but ultimately FAPA won the war.

The IMSL arbitration, fought by four different unions (ALPA, IBT, UTU and FAPA) was unwound by FAPA. Can anyone name another Union that successfully vacated a binding arbitration? I am not talking about delaying the inevitable I am talking about burying the list forever.

For the first time in RLA bargaining history (someone tell me I am wrong) a concession was monetized and carved out from a CBA into a Commercial Agreement. Pilots became actual investors as opposed to stakeholders and an equity share awaits IPO.

FAPA regained its representation status (someone tell me the last time a union was ousted only to be replaced by the NMB), yet a vocal minority of the pilot group believes ALPA is the answer.

The "ALPA" discussion has been going on for some time. It was started by some folks that have serious personal issues with ANYTHING FAPA. It amazes me that not long ago, ALPA visited during the initial representation dispute after the RAH acquisition. They quietly flew back to Herndon, there was too much heavy lifting for them to join the fray. A few years later FAPA petitioned the NMB in an effort to escape the IBT after the Indigo transaction. The malcontents immediately contacted ALPA but they once again decided to sit it out. Too much heavy lifting remained.

ALPA has completely turned their back on the Frontier pilots twice, yet somehow they are the answer to all of our problems?

The gents from Herndon are selling ALPA now, after the hard work is done, the hay has already been put in the barn. They like to throw out costs in an effort to scare some into thinking independent unions like FAPA will have difficulty financing negotiations. Keep in mind FAPA has already bargained two Section 6 CBA's, a BK, an IMSL, multiple LOA's, multiple levels of frivolous litigation filed by the IBT. FAPA isn't going to run out of money. They remain silent when the topic of mergers is brought up knowing that ALPA merger policy is meaningless and provides zero additional legal protection.

If ALPA is elected we will all get new tie tacks. They sure do have pretty stickers as well. The name outside of the union office will need to be replaced, but the handful of folks busting their arses on behalf of the entire pilot group will remain the same. We don't need ALPA, ALPA needs the Frontier Pilots, that is the only reason they are back...for the third time.

Do any of you want an agent that follows the path of least resistance? When the going got tough, FAPA put in the work and made it happen. ALPA ran home.

If you have a problem with any individuals within FAPA you should run for office and impart some change. ALPA isn't going to change anything for you.

Rant over.

Aero1900

Zoo,

Thanks for the thoughtful response and defense of FAPA. While I understand and appreciate the job that they have done and the very long odds they have faced, I have one question:

If everyone agrees that the vast majority of the work is done by the local guys, going with ALPA doesn't change that. We will still have the brains and hard work of the FAPA team, in addition to the resources of ALPA??? Seems to me that if it's the same guys working across the parking lot, but with the benefit of ALPA backing, isn't that a win for us?

My mind is not made up, and I'm not trying to influence anyones decision. I'm just trying to figure out the pro's and con's. Thanks to all that have responded

Nevets

Didn't the sale to indigo take care of the list for you? Didn't Fedex go back to ALPA? ALPA will be interested when it's beneficial to ALPA, yes. And FAPA should merge with ALPA when it's beneficial to FAPA, and not a day sooner. In other words, when it's beneficial to both sides. Anyway, with ALPA, you will have the same people working on your behalf. But you will also have the resources of ALPA that FAPA will never have.

zoooropa

The problem with this theory is the definition of "resources of ALPA". I have been ALPA, they have resources. Frontier pilots could benefit from some of those resources while others are off-limits to a carrier the size of Frontier. ALPA provides some tail-risk protection but the day to day ops and the people actually at the table will be much stronger if we remain independent. ALPA hasn't cornered the market on experts, in fact many of the ALPA stars have jumped ship and started their own consulting biz while others went over to the dark side at FH for bigger pay. Some "former ALPA/non-dark side" stars have been hired by FAPA and the results were incredible. The stars that ALPA has today work for the bigger revenue sources (legacy carriers).

You can't compare Jetblue's experience with Frontier. They didn't have a contract or a Union. They were desperate. You can't compare Virgin with Frontier. They didn't have a contract or a Union. They were desperate. Did jetblue and virgin improve their situation by electing ALPA instead of having no contract and no union? Maybe. We haven't seen the end-product yet.

If ALPA is the answer why hasn't American joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't Southwest joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't UPS joined?

The reason is the same reason we should not join. A functioning, funded, independent Union is superior to ALPA.

ALPA won the representation sales job at Allegiant, Jetblue, and Virgin for one reason. They scared the pilots into thinking they didn't have enough money to bargain as independents. They are trying the same exact sales job here but it doesn't apply.

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. It is all they offer, but those stickers are cool as hell!

zoooropa

No.

Prior to and after the completion of the transaction with Indigo the IBT and ALPA saw bright neon lights on the wall identifying the fact that their opportunity to steal seats and seniority from Frontier pilots was sailing away. Both parties launched attacks in federal court, with Eschein, and the System Board of Arbitration attempting to have a judge force Frontier to stop hiring and fill vacancies via the IMSL.

The IBT went to Eischen with one dispute, district court with another, and the Company with yet another via SBA. They literally visited new-hire classes for over a year telling the new-hires they were "alleged new-hires" and the IBT was fighting to get them replaced with RAH pilots. Interesting "meet and great" strategy.

ALPA went to Eischen and district court. They not only wanted the IMSL for bidding purposes they wanted RECALL rights at F9.

The only entity fighting on behalf of the Frontier pilots was little 'ole FAPA. These legal battles proceeded well after the Indigo purchase and after the NMB decision to reinstate FAPA. The final straw was a victory before Eischen. After FAPA prevailed with that dispute the circuit court litigation was withdrawn with prejudice (could not be revisited) and the SBA's were cancelled.

Indigo provided the stick, FAPA used the stick with incredible efficacy.

Have you seen how cool the ALPA tie tack looks when combined with my pin striped Frontier tie? I can't wait.

zoooropa

I am definitely trying to influence everyone's decision. Frankly there shouldn't even be a decision to make.

cloudwarrior

Thank You for Your Kind words during this Holiday Season . YOU are so Full & Overflowing with Love, Hope, and Good Wish's, we should All be Thankfull . And YOU Sir, ....I hope you get Everything, That You Deserve, as well.
Happy Holidays, and Thank You for the Support.


Merry Christmass, and HAPPY New Year.!!!

dracir1

So...are we voting in ALPAor not?

Speed Breaker

Zoop; thank you...... Finally, I am glad to see an educated discussion on keeping FAPA. I agree and am on that side as well. while I have not been here very long, I do feel/ see there is much more positive benefit to staying FAPA only. I truly hope the majority here are taking the time to educate themselves when they vote one way or another.