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Old 10-18-2012, 06:19 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Old Ucal:

"So, it sounds like some personal choices are in order...make a personal move or wait your turn like everybody else before you ."

Well let me embarrass you a bit. I have been at UAL for almost 35 years and have enjoyed my seniority. It only took me 12 years to make Captain because by fate and good fortune I was hired at the start of the new-hire of the late 70s. You do the math on what my choices might be.

You sir are modeling what is called "the entitled" syndrome. Didn't like it coming from the "Tracy-Aces" who were at UAL when I got hired nor do I like it today when it comes from my peers.

Every pilot I fly with (with the exception of many who were hired in 1985) are consummate professionals and deserve, by talent, to fly Captain. However, due to what ever you want to call it, fate, karma or some other thing, they have sat in the right seat without a chance to improve either their status or life style.

So when you blindly accuse others of stuff please consider what your choices are and how you got them.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:56 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Regularguy,

Thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious. When I was hired we had 3 year Captains. Back then I figured that I'd wait 7 or 8 years to upgrade so I could enjoy some decent seniority for (commuter) bidding. Pretty funny how that worked out!

Its a cyclical industry and airlines have come and gone along with idiotic ideas and readily available capital. There's no guarantee of success yet almost always excess hubris coupled with a lack of business acumen. A pilot signs up on someones list and keeps his fingers crossed. Yet, its his fault that his decisions have kept him in the right seat?

In my career there were plenty of airlines which I never applied to due to a particularly putrid stench of one scent or another. Yet, looking back I wish that I had rolled the dice and applied to them when a much younger man. Who knows, I might be a 777 Captain now! In this industry, shiiip happens. But hey, look at all that multi engine turbine time I was able to build! (What a joke)

Here's an ugly fact. When I was a commuter Captain, former Pan Am and Eastern Captains flew as my F/O. I should have quit then.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:19 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive View Post
CRAP SANDWICH FOR ALL!!!
BELOW "industry standard pay" (< Delta)+WORTHLESS SCOPE (76 seats)+NO LONGEVITY for furloughs+PAY BAND 767 with 747 (really?)+...= NO!!!!!

Look BEYOND the $$$$ people!

I don't care if they pay me $150/hr for 2nd year FO... if I don't make it to year 2 or three, or there's no airplane to fly 'casue it's been "scoped out", who cares?
Have you seen the TA?

Do you know there is no longevity for furloughees? Do you know the scope section is bad? Do you know how our B/C funds will compare? Ect...why freak out when you haven't seen the TA? Also, do you even have a vote?
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:38 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ChrisJT6 View Post
...why freak out when you haven't seen the TA? Also, do you even have a vote?
No one is "freaking out".. but people are reacting (and rightfully so) to the rumors/info that is out there.

A Rep (LAX FO) stated early on some of the points of the TA. Now it seems some of those "rumors" have been confirmed by our own Union Leadership.

My own MEC Chair commented at the last local council meeting that there was a hold up at the MEC's level because "the company has given us a lump sum to divide.. and we can't come up with an acceptable solution" [8 Oct 12]. "We have another meeting scheduled with the UAL MEC this Wed and hope to come to an agreement". "If not, ALPA Policy allows for JCBA Ratification without the sum known (!), or we can go to arbitration to determine how to divide the money"

So, to me.. reading between the lines.. Full Retro is no longer the goal of this Union.
That being said, we should all have a lump sum in our mind. There is nothing wrong about talking about that~

I agree that you have to look at the whole JCBA. But what if the B/C fund is 25% but Scope is sold out.. pay is less than Delta by a year.. is that acceptable?!

I have my minimums for every section of the JCBA. Delta minus 1 year doesn't cut it. Delta Scope doesn't cut it. $400 million divided by the two sides doesn't cut it.

Me posting on these message boards just lets the Union (and the company) know where I stand. [And since I identify myself, they know who I am]. It also (hopefully) raises discussions among other pilots and makes them "think" about minimums among all the sections.

Motch
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:46 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisJT6 View Post
Have you seen the TA?

Do you know there is no longevity for furloughees? Do you know the scope section is bad? Do you know how our B/C funds will compare? Ect...why freak out when you haven't seen the TA? Also, do you even have a vote?
I haven't "seen" the TA. (People I know have). Talk to me after tomorrow....
YES
YES (IMHO)
NO (anything LESS than what UAL was gettin' is bad)
etc. (?) (for me, SCOPE and AT LEAST "industry standard" would make me "think")
"Freak out"? NO... just ****ed from what I've been told.
And, YES...
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:00 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by horrido27 View Post
No one is "freaking out".. but people are reacting (and rightfully so) to the rumors/info that is out there.

A Rep (LAX FO) stated early on some of the points of the TA. Now it seems some of those "rumors" have been confirmed by our own Union Leadership.

My own MEC Chair commented at the last local council meeting that there was a hold up at the MEC's level because "the company has given us a lump sum to divide.. and we can't come up with an acceptable solution" [8 Oct 12]. "We have another meeting scheduled with the UAL MEC this Wed and hope to come to an agreement". "If not, ALPA Policy allows for JCBA Ratification without the sum known (!), or we can go to arbitration to determine how to divide the money"

So, to me.. reading between the lines.. Full Retro is no longer the goal of this Union.
That being said, we should all have a lump sum in our mind. There is nothing wrong about talking about that~

I agree that you have to look at the whole JCBA. But what if the B/C fund is 25% but Scope is sold out.. pay is less than Delta by a year.. is that acceptable?!

I have my minimums for every section of the JCBA. Delta minus 1 year doesn't cut it. Delta Scope doesn't cut it. $400 million divided by the two sides doesn't cut it.

Me posting on these message boards just lets the Union (and the company) know where I stand. [And since I identify myself, they know who I am]. It also (hopefully) raises discussions among other pilots and makes them "think" about minimums among all the sections.

Motch
Our MEC Chairman also points out how counterproductive it is to discredit a TA and hard work that hasnt been released in final product. I think the $400 MIL is just for the CAL side, yes that's right LAX LEC shot from the hip was not accurate according to our MEC Chairman as well.
I hope everyone with a vote uses thought before voting.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:09 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive View Post
I haven't "seen" the TA. (People I know have). Talk to me after tomorrow....
YES
YES (IMHO)
NO (anything LESS than what UAL was gettin' is bad)
etc. (?) (for me, SCOPE and AT LEAST "industry standard" would make me "think")
"Freak out"? NO... just ****ed from what I've been told.
And, YES...
Well ... You must be a connected guy! I guess it comes out tomorrow as I believe you are predicting...I hope you're wrong but that's why we should keep our resumes updated. With the ability to exercise self help apparently not a realistic option anymore the uphill climb keeps getting steeper.
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:16 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Chris..
when you say "our", I take it that you are a Continental Pilot.
If so, I will say this.

My (our) MEC Chair told me (us) that he would not run for National Office, that he was here for the Continental Pilots and our (J)CBA.
That was during the last (not latest) ALPA National BOD Meeting.
Then he ran for office.

That's were he lost me.

Since then, he has not shown true leadership and (in my opinion) he demonstrated his true character with the Paris/Crew Rest seat issue a while back.

I will also state that I personally asked him how much he flies/flew this year. I was not happy with his answer and told him that if he was out there flying at least once a month, he would know what the line pilots are going through. But I digress.

We will see what the (Final) JCBA has in it and how close the LAX Rep was to being right. Me, I'm taking his "rumor" with a grain of salt.
I will read the whole document.. but since I will be starting with Definitions/Scope, I will probably vote accordingly after that.
I will then add to my comments on the rest of the TA afterwards.

That being said, after the last local council meeting.. I feel that my Reps no longer represent my best interests. Hate to type that, but it's how I feel. They were asked and answered my question concerning Resolution 1010-93R. They would not let us see it against the wishes of the NMB. At that point, they no longer work for me but work for the NMB.. who in turns works for the Government.

Tomorrow's the 19th. We are suppose to hear that the AIP's are done and the TA is given to the MEC's. We will see.

Motch

Motch

PS> Ironically, watching a Delta commercial on TV right now. We are so screwed~
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:44 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisJT6 View Post
I think the $400 MIL is just for the CAL side,

Still far less than Full Retro Pay for the last 4 years.


I used to say it to the Company, now I'm saying it to the union:

FUPM!!!!!
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:17 AM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Our MEC Chairman also points out how counterproductive it is to discredit a TA and hard work that hasnt been released in final product. I think the $400 MIL is just for the CAL side, yes that's right LAX LEC shot from the hip was not accurate according to our MEC Chairman as well.
I hope everyone with a vote uses thought before voting.

I like your optimism but I think you are going to be disappointed just as much as the rest of us will.
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